Pure breed

[fatpat 7]

So somone could produce a pure breed in their lifetime ? it would have to be a life times work would it not ? look at plummer he still classed his breed as an unfinished work, he was still trying to correct faults when he died was he not ?

 

i think it would take say 2 or 3 generations in a family to produce and perfect a breed of your own, then only a couple of generations for the kennel club to f**k it all up! lol

 

im in the middle of creating my own breed of chicken, havent got half the breeds in the mix that i need yet though! lol, come back to me in 10yrs and i'll hopefully have it starting to take shape lol

Got to agree about kc lol, any chance of a few eggs ? lol.

[CarraghsGem 92]

So somone could produce a pure breed in their lifetime ? it would have to be a life times work would it not ? look at plummer he still classed his breed as an unfinished work, he was still trying to correct faults when he died was he not ?

 

i think it would take say 2 or 3 generations in a family to produce and perfect a breed of your own, then only a couple of generations for the kennel club to f**k it all up! lol

 

im in the middle of creating my own breed of chicken, havent got half the breeds in the mix that i need yet though! lol, come back to me in 10yrs and i'll hopefully have it starting to take shape lol

Got to agree about kc lol, any chance of a few eggs ? lol.

 

you'd have to be early to beat the neighbours, they just "happen ta call in for a cuppa" on a frequent basis to get their eggs, at this rate im gonna have to start chargeing them for the eggs

[fatpat 7]

I wonder what the kc take is on pure breeds ? what do they look for when accepting a new breed ?

[KawValley 131]

I think a breed, type, or even a strain, is pure when it breeds true to type for whatever the breeder sets as his ideal. I also don't think you can say it takes x number of generations to get a pure line. While one breeder may advance a line or breed very fast using quality animals and making informed breeding decisions- others may breed for years-a lifetime even, and make little to no improvement to their line/breed. So, there are too many variables to say purity can be had in a certain # of generations. Some people are constantly advancing, while others may be doing the same dumb shit for years. JMO

[sallie 67]

The KC well,to accept a new breed it takes years and im sure some knowledgeable person on here will know far more than me. Parson Jack Russells are one of the most recent i think to have been accepted by the KC. Personally I dont know why anyone would want to be part of the KC i feel they do more harm than good but thats just my opinion. To much red tape to many rules and regulations. As I understand with a conversation with someone from the KC a patterdale is nothing more than a mongrel and totally unacceptable. So i would imagine thats how it is for all unregistered breeds. This explains in part how to register a new breed.http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/603

As for pure breed when does it become pure, I would say if you are breeding and you keep records, know your bloodlines and have a good many generations, but im still not sure that means that they are pure as they have been crossed somewhere but then even the KC refistered breeds have been crossed somewhere. Very interesting though.

[fatpat 7]

The KC well,to accept a new breed it takes years and im sure some knowledgeable person on here will know far more than me. Parson Jack Russells are one of the most recent i think to have been accepted by the KC. Personally I dont know why anyone would want to be part of the KC i feel they do more harm than good but thats just my opinion. To much red tape to many rules and regulations. As I understand with a conversation with someone from the KC a patterdale is nothing more than a mongrel and totally unacceptable. So i would imagine thats how it is for all unregistered breeds. This explains in part how to register a new breed.http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/603

As for pure breed when does it become pure, I would say if you are breeding and you keep records, know your bloodlines and have a good many generations, but im still not sure that means that they are pure as they have been crossed somewhere but then even the KC refistered breeds have been crossed somewhere. Very interesting though.

Wonder where the kc got all their breeds from in the first place ?

[sallie 67]

Ive no idea, i suspect there will be a history on there web site somewhere.

As far as Patterdales go as that is all i know a little about you can register them with the Patterdale terrier club of America but there are very strict rules to abide by. A bit more info here http://ptca.00go.com/

Perhaps some of the American guys can enlighten more. That would be one way to end up with a registered Patterdale.

[tearem 31]

Purebred means they share mental and physical characteristics and breed more or less true to type.In that way, Patterdales are a breed because you can easily recognise them by type, both in appearance as in performance.

We can be lucky to have such diverse strains of terriers left, so that we don't need to inbreed.

Closed studbooks etc. are always going toward every generation more inbreeding and finally a dead end.

Almost all "official" "pedigree" breeds are plagued with hereditary ailments and inbreeding depression to the extent of being infertile or hardly viable.

To make such caricatures as the FCI and the KC do, you must inbreed.

The kennel clubs only breed for looks, and exaggerated looks at that, for the most extreme are noticed, and will be bought by the public.

Where have all those once robust, sound and capable terrier breeds gone to, now that they are in the hands of the pretenders?

And what is happening with the Parson Russell right now? I know what happens to them in Belgium and Holland. I was with the club since the beginning, but no one here is interested in Russells as workers, Russells with steady managable characters, or even healthy Russells. It's all about the Dog Show Russell and making money. You know it, I know it. If you want to keep working dogs, conformation follows function.

Never be seduced to breed pretty terriers into your reliable, game good working lines to score at "working terrier shows". (for me as an outsider, I'm amazed there could be anything like a "working terrier show." It's a contradiction, and a working terrier which has had a decent amount of work never looks pretty, nor has it a full set of teeth, at least mine lose some parts under way. For me they look ever prettier when they get older and more experienced and solve difficult problems with difficult quarry. I can count on them and love them for it. My best terrier of the moment sometimes makes up for my stupid mistakes. Last week she saved the day again. She wouldn't come out as the job was not yet done, she wouldn't give up the quarry, so I dug to her and we had a formidable quarry. She has a grey face and outside her work, is always quiet, and you can't arouse her interest. For show people, my young terriers look boring and my old ones are ragged eyesores.) Never breed your precious workers to kennel club stuff or you'll ruin them. For one thing, if you breed to a pedigree breed, you will haul into your line all sorts of genetic defects.

The German hunt terrier is a pedigree breed with working skills, and bred mainly for work, but they too suffer from inbreeding, and I chose to cross them to British working terriers and this improved the descendants.

I never inbreed, sometimes linebreed if I have a really good individual, but if I see someone elses dog work and the dog is so good I think it can add something desirable to my line, I will breed to it.

My terriers have traits from Bedlington, Patterdale and Russell and my 10 dogs are not a similar lot, and why would they have to be?, a different job needs a different dog, and only people who are not alive any more now, know what was bred into them in the past.

And what is a paper but a patient lie?

So called breeders of FCI registered breeds were messing with papers, and the dogs probably owe it to that, that they are not yet extinct. Now that they oblige DNA testing, the purebred breeds will collapse ever more rapidly.

Do we need purebred dogs to have good working terriers?

And do our working terriers have to look like some show addict's made up standard?

There are enough terrier breeds, once useful lines, messed up by these folks, let's keep the remaining workers out of their greedy talons. Let's keep them healthy, happy and ugly.

[sallie 67]

Purebred means they share mental and physical characteristics and breed more or less true to type.In that way, Patterdales are a breed because you can easily recognise them by type, both in appearance as in performance.

We can be lucky to have such diverse strains of terriers left, so that we don't need to inbreed.

Closed studbooks etc. are always going toward every generation more inbreeding and finally a dead end.

Almost all "official" "pedigree" breeds are plagued with hereditary ailments and inbreeding depression to the extent of being infertile or hardly viable.

To make such caricatures as the FCI and the KC do, you must inbreed.

The kennel clubs only breed for looks, and exaggerated looks at that, for the most extreme are noticed, and will be bought by the public.

Where have all those once robust, sound and capable terrier breeds gone to, now that they are in the hands of the pretenders?

And what is happening with the Parson Russell right now? I know what happens to them in Belgium and Holland. I was with the club since the beginning, but no one here is interested in Russells as workers, Russells with steady managable characters, or even healthy Russells. It's all about the Dog Show Russell and making money. You know it, I know it. If you want to keep working dogs, conformation follows function.

Never be seduced to breed pretty terriers into your reliable, game good working lines to score at "working terrier shows". (for me as an outsider, I'm amazed there could be anything like a "working terrier show." It's a contradiction, and a working terrier which has had a decent amount of work never looks pretty, nor has it a full set of teeth, at least mine lose some parts under way. For me they look ever prettier when they get older and more experienced and solve difficult problems with difficult quarry. I can count on them and love them for it. My best terrier of the moment sometimes makes up for my stupid mistakes. Last week she saved the day again. She wouldn't come out as the job was not yet done, she wouldn't give up the quarry, so I dug to her and we had a formidable quarry. She has a grey face and outside her work, is always quiet, and you can't arouse her interest. For show people, my young terriers look boring and my old ones are ragged eyesores.) Never breed your precious workers to kennel club stuff or you'll ruin them. For one thing, if you breed to a pedigree breed, you will haul into your line all sorts of genetic defects.

The German hunt terrier is a pedigree breed with working skills, and bred mainly for work, but they too suffer from inbreeding, and I chose to cross them to British working terriers and this improved the descendants.

I never inbreed, sometimes linebreed if I have a really good individual, but if I see someone elses dog work and the dog is so good I think it can add something desirable to my line, I will breed to it.

My terriers have traits from Bedlington, Patterdale and Russell and my 10 dogs are not a similar lot, and why would they have to be?, a different job needs a different dog, and only people who are not alive any more now, know what was bred into them in the past.

And what is a paper but a patient lie?

So called breeders of FCI registered breeds were messing with papers, and the dogs probably owe it to that, that they are not yet extinct. Now that they oblige DNA testing, the purebred breeds will collapse ever more rapidly.

Do we need purebred dogs to have good working terriers?

And do our working terriers have to look like some show addict's made up standard?

There are enough terrier breeds, once useful lines, messed up by these folks, let's keep the remaining workers out of their greedy talons. Let's keep them healthy, happy and ugly.

My experience of working terrier shows are that the scarred and obviously worked dog get placed well up the line as that is what its about. Granted there are classes for the non working and the good old family class lol... Papers dont really matter a good terrier is a good terrier regardless of paperwork which we can all do without. Good post and interesting read.

[tearem 31]

A dog doesn't even HAVE to be scarred to be a good worker. With "ugly" I mean mostly they are just normal looking, of quiet disposition, and in no way striking or exaggerated, so not of interest to show people. Some of the best avoid contact and are still useful. A friend of mine, an Englishman living in Holland has Russells, mostly from Chapman, and goes to ground predators a lot, but his dogs are hardly touched.

Mine are a bit, having 50+ hunting days a year to big ground predators and mainly boar.

But compared to packs of purebred German hunt terriers, mine look formidably whole! And they survive the seasons, too, and get better and more cunning each year they live.

My best dog is hardly ever damaged and if so, only slightly. Years ago, I had a female which still hunted pigs on her own if every other man's dog, hound, terrier or cross, including my entire pack, refused, cause they got tired, the weather was bad, and there were thorn bushes. She only got hit 2 times in her life, when she was old and had a heart condition. Even those accidents were minor. No need to say, I bred to her and my present dogs have partly her blood.

Through the British terriers, I bred the sense back into them and I am grateful.

[fatpat 7]

Thanks for the posts folks, very interesting comments,anyone else out there got any ideas on what pure breed means to them ?

[sallie 67]

A dog doesn't even HAVE to be scarred to be a good worker. With "ugly" I mean mostly they are just normal looking, of quiet disposition, and in no way striking or exaggerated, so not of interest to show people. Some of the best avoid contact and are still useful. A friend of mine, an Englishman living in Holland has Russells, mostly from Chapman, and goes to ground predators a lot, but his dogs are hardly touched.

Mine are a bit, having 50+ hunting days a year to big ground predators and mainly boar.

But compared to packs of purebred German hunt terriers, mine look formidably whole! And they survive the seasons, too, and get better and more cunning each year they live.

My best dog is hardly ever damaged and if so, only slightly. Years ago, I had a female which still hunted pigs on her own if every other man's dog, hound, terrier or cross, including my entire pack, refused, cause they got tired, the weather was bad, and there were thorn bushes. She only got hit 2 times in her life, when she was old and had a heart condition. Even those accidents were minor. No need to say, I bred to her and my present dogs have partly her blood.

Through the British terriers, I bred the sense back into them and I am grateful.

Nothing wrong with normal looking thats healthy lol i just meant by scarred it is usually higher up the line than just a pretty pretty terrier. I also know a guy who hunts in Holland with patterdales and what a different world that is. again enjoyed your post very interesting and informative.

[foxfan 479]

Sallie quote: perhaps some of the American guys can enlighten more. That would be one way to end up with a registered Patterdale.

 

 

 

 

God forbid.

[sallie 67]

foxfan didnt say it was right just having it open to discussion lol....

[Nick 14]

Registration is only good for one thing, and that to increase the value of the "merchandise"! As Tearem said, fraud with pedigree dogs is bigger then everybody knows. So it will come down to your believe and trust in the breeder to trust that you bought a well bred dog, isn't this also the case with dogs without a "FCI" pedigee?

 

I also was once a follower of the "purebred" dog, but whats that? And even when we can pinpoint the exact details of when a dog becomes "purebred" what will it do for the breed? Look around and see whats happening. They will end up just breeding "pedigrees" instead of dogs.

 

I think it is a disservice to a breed to become recognised.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Nick