Took the Airedale cross pup ferreting

[Born Hunter 17,797]

My coyote dogs walk around the yard lazily with a confidence that cannot really be explained. Other dogs know it to cuz they stay away from them. Its very odd but they dont except these "lurcher" or hounds into their little society. I know I sound crazy here and I thought the fella who gave me my dogs was crazy too when he was saying it but he wasnt. He was right about 99% of the stuff he told me. There is something about these old school "wolf dogs" that is unlike any lurcher or crossbred or whatever that I have ever seen.

 

I think thats the best description you have ever given of your dogs dan. Gotta say, really like that sort of temperament in a sighthound.

 

Penny, from our chat a few weeks back you said how driven these pups of yours are. Actively hunting from a very young age. I dont know if you recall but I had the same, 'problem' if you will, with my wheaton/collie bitch and I as a result (also due to huge inexperience) really struggled to teach her the patience that ferreting demands and so now I have a dog that hunts like a demon and has to be kept on the slip while ferreting to stop her slying off behind my back. My point, do you think your pups will have the patience for ferreting being the naturaly driven hunting types they are like their mother? Or is it something any dog can be taught as long is it is approached from a young age as you are doing?

 

atb

Ben

[Dan Edwards 1,134]

I know what you are saying about your dogs: I was fortunate enough to have what I call a special dog in a litter of lurchers I once bred: her dam was a good fox killer, but this one had that aura of power, a dark side which made her apart from the rest: she was a killer through and through and would kill another dog if it looked at her wrong: she commanded respect, and never got aggressive with another dog unless it bothered her.

 

This is pretty much exactly what I am talkin about. The second dog you described though does not resemble them at all. I have seen my male dog lay on my neighbours porch with their cat and their yard shepherd type dog with never a growl or a sideways glance. He knows the difference. I have seen all of my dogs at my buddies house laying in his yard with his cats and chickens running all over the place and they never bothered them. I know exactly what you speak of though when you say she had an aura about her. I see that all the time. I also know what you mean by commanding respect. They do not demand it like some bully but they command it like a leader. It's very obvious. I have had lurchers, hounds, field trial greyhounds, bulldogs, curs, feists, crossbred mutts you name it and I have never in my life seen this quality. Its very primitive. My buddy let us have one of his older male dogs last spring and this dog and my male dog are my "pack leaders". He has the same qualities of the other dogs I got. He knows he is second to my male dog but there is never an issue nor will there be, they just both know but he is not third and never will be until their male pups grow up and one of them becomes the boss on the yard. I aint lookin forward to that day but it will come someday and when it does, so be it. No hound nor lurcher that I can breed will ever hold that position. They just dont have it in them.

[Dan Edwards 1,134]

I doubt even 1% of the trade dogs sold at Loomis are the real deal. I doubt that 10% of the dogs in this country are the real deal. I own several dogs and I only own one that is the real deal. The rest have some of the same traits but they are different. I've taken field trial greyhounds and killed coyotes with them and caught coons and such with them. I have hunted cur dogs and did the same but they are not the real deal. There is a difference.

[skycat 6,173]

Penny, from our chat a few weeks back you said how driven these pups of yours are. Actively hunting from a very young age. I dont know if you recall but I had the same, 'problem' if you will, with my wheaton/collie bitch and I as a result (also due to huge inexperience) really struggled to teach her the patience that ferreting demands and so now I have a dog that hunts like a demon and has to be kept on the slip while ferreting to stop her slying off behind my back. My point, do you think your pups will have the patience for ferreting being the naturaly driven hunting types they are like their mother? Or is it something any dog can be taught as long is it is approached from a young age as you are doing?

 

atb

Ben

 

Ben: there is a big difference between my two pups: Schuck is driven and wants to find stuff all the time, either on top or below ground: but she's thinking all the time, not just running about like a mad thing. She sussed the ferreting thing very quickly: you could practically see the light going on in her head! That is intelligence at its best: the ability to figure out what is happening and adapt to a situation accordingly. I'm sure she will soon be marking a hole then looking at me to tell me to get a ferret in there, on a regular basis. Most good ferreting dogs soon learn, as well, that there is not point holding a mark if you don't have ferrets with you: Sparrow and Cricket are prime examples of that, and just give a quick sniff and a look at an occupied hole if we're out mooching. Take the ferrets and they stick with their mark and try to locate the rabbit as accurately as possible for when it bolts.

 

Lena is completely different, she's running about, doing a bit of air scenting, chasing birds and generally scampering backwards and forwards, easily distracted by anything that moves, and loving to run and play. I'm not saying that she wouldn't take to ferreting, but she's not ready for it yet.

 

IMO there are two types of driven: the driven that can adapt and learn to work slowly, focussed on slow situations like ferreting, and the more active type of driven which actually needs to be HUNTING actively rather than being part of a team, like with ferrets and people. Andy's Picardy cross Roo is an active hunter, and gets bored stiff ferreting, whereas Raven, the other Picardy cross, has the patience and attention span which allows him to enjoy ferreting and concentrate on watching and waiting for the bolt.

 

IMO it doesn't matter what the breeding of the dog is, it is just that there are different types of intelligence and drive and it is up to the owner to recognise what his or her dog has, and use it to its potential; doing the sort of work which the dog will enjoy will always make the dog a better dog than trying to make it into the type which isn't suited to a particular job.

 

Of course, a really intelligent, adaptable dog will be able to do a lot more things than a thick dog: Dill has the patience to wait at a dig without getting all hyped up and silly, just being there when she is needed, if you get my drift. Yet you've seen how driven a hunter she is: she just has the brains and temperament to be able to adapt herself to different types of work.

[johnny boy68 11,726]

Penny, from our chat a few weeks back you said how driven these pups of yours are. Actively hunting from a very young age. I dont know if you recall but I had the same, 'problem' if you will, with my wheaton/collie bitch and I as a result (also due to huge inexperience) really struggled to teach her the patience that ferreting demands and so now I have a dog that hunts like a demon and has to be kept on the slip while ferreting to stop her slying off behind my back. My point, do you think your pups will have the patience for ferreting being the naturaly driven hunting types they are like their mother? Or is it something any dog can be taught as long is it is approached from a young age as you are doing?

 

atb

Ben

 

Ben: there is a big difference between my two pups: Schuck is driven and wants to find stuff all the time, either on top or below ground: but she's thinking all the time, not just running about like a mad thing. She sussed the ferreting thing very quickly: you could practically see the light going on in her head! That is intelligence at its best: the ability to figure out what is happening and adapt to a situation accordingly. I'm sure she will soon be marking a hole then looking at me to tell me to get a ferret in there, on a regular basis. Most good ferreting dogs soon learn, as well, that there is not point holding a mark if you don't have ferrets with you: Sparrow and Cricket are prime examples of that, and just give a quick sniff and a look at an occupied hole if we're out mooching. Take the ferrets and they stick with their mark and try to locate the rabbit as accurately as possible for when it bolts.

 

Lena is completely different, she's running about, doing a bit of air scenting, chasing birds and generally scampering backwards and forwards, easily distracted by anything that moves, and loving to run and play. I'm not saying that she wouldn't take to ferreting, but she's not ready for it yet.

 

IMO there are two types of driven: the driven that can adapt and learn to work slowly, focussed on slow situations like ferreting, and the more active type of driven which actually needs to be HUNTING actively rather than being part of a team, like with ferrets and people. Andy's Picardy cross Roo is an active hunter, and gets bored stiff ferreting, whereas Raven, the other Picardy cross, has the patience and attention span which allows him to enjoy ferreting and concentrate on watching and waiting for the bolt.

 

IMO it doesn't matter what the breeding of the dog is, it is just that there are different types of intelligence and drive and it is up to the owner to recognise what his or her dog has, and use it to its potential; doing the sort of work which the dog will enjoy will always make the dog a better dog than trying to make it into the type which isn't suited to a particular job.

 

Of course, a really intelligent, adaptable dog will be able to do a lot more things than a thick dog: Dill has the patience to wait at a dig without getting all hyped up and silly, just being there when she is needed, if you get my drift. Yet you've seen how driven a hunter she is: she just has the brains and temperament to be able to adapt herself to different types of work.

Penny sorry to deviate from the thread a bit........I'm interested in the picardy and was wondering have they any characteristics that make them any different from our more popular border/beardie types when put into a lurchers breeding?

Nice to hear how the airdale's are coming along too

[Born Hunter 17,797]

Thanks for that Penny, I understand what your saying. Seems schuck is showing more early promise then? Still very young yet though of course, wouldnt be the first time the apparntly more imature of 2 pups proved to be the better given time and a carefull handler.

 

As for my bitch, I think I've got what I wanted in many respects but that all depends on how she fairs next season with the tasks I had in mind for her before I even set eyes on her. Be nice for you to see her again now shes not such a daft arse pup and see if you can give any more usefull advice.

 

atb

Ben

[skycat 6,173]

johnny boy: the Picardy crosses aren't my cup of tea at all: they are my OH's dogs. They are too hyper for me, very full on and full of pent up energy, probably not that different to some Beardie crosses. My temperament means I look for a dog that is very calm and laid back at the same time as having a lot of drive and persistence in the field. I'm not really a Collie person of any sort and can't stand squeaky, whiny, hyper dogs. I couldn't cope with Roo out lamping: she is a maniac and can't be run loose, and pulls on the lead like a nutter. BUT her catch rate is phenomenal and even on this fast, one-chance-and-its-gone ground, she normally catches more than 90% of the rabbits she runs: she is VERY GOOD INDEED at this job. The dog is still young and immature, but more laid back and intelligent though still an irritating little sh*t, actually BIG LOL, at times round the yard and at home.

 

I reckon they need a lot of work to calm them down and they are definitely not the sort of dog to leave in the kennel all week. The two my OH has are definitely a bit vocal at home, though never in the field, and their drive, hunting instinct and desire are superb. There seems to be a big difference in size and weight between dogs and bitches, with the bitches being a lot lighter in build and smaller too. For big stuff the dogs are great: the sire to the dog is awesome to look at and apparently flushes very big things single handed no problem and takes anything that moves. I've never seen it work, but there is an air of power and almost sinister single minded killer in its eyes: the dog really impressed me when I saw it, and I'm not easily impressed these days LOL

 

Like I said, not my cup of tea personally, and they do take some dedicated training and need to be kept on top of and under control, but certainly useful dogs, though whether they offer anything extra to a really good tough Beardie cross I don't know. A friend of mine has a line bred Beardie cross which does everything a Picardy would do, is just as brainy.

 

YOu should really ask Mark Treadwell who breeds the Picardy crosses, or someone who has seen more work than I have, to get the true and full picture.

[johnny boy68 11,726]

johnny boy: the Picardy crosses aren't my cup of tea at all: they are my OH's dogs. They are too hyper for me, very full on and full of pent up energy, probably not that different to some Beardie crosses. My temperament means I look for a dog that is very calm and laid back at the same time as having a lot of drive and persistence in the field. I'm not really a Collie person of any sort and can't stand squeaky, whiny, hyper dogs. I couldn't cope with Roo out lamping: she is a maniac and can't be run loose, and pulls on the lead like a nutter. BUT her catch rate is phenomenal and even on this fast, one-chance-and-its-gone ground, she normally catches more than 90% of the rabbits she runs: she is VERY GOOD INDEED at this job. The dog is still young and immature, but more laid back and intelligent though still an irritating little sh*t, actually BIG LOL, at times round the yard and at home.

 

I reckon they need a lot of work to calm them down and they are definitely not the sort of dog to leave in the kennel all week. The two my OH has are definitely a bit vocal at home, though never in the field, and their drive, hunting instinct and desire are superb. There seems to be a big difference in size and weight between dogs and bitches, with the bitches being a lot lighter in build and smaller too. For big stuff the dogs are great: the sire to the dog is awesome to look at and apparently flushes very big things single handed no problem and takes anything that moves. I've never seen it work, but there is an air of power and almost sinister single minded killer in its eyes: the dog really impressed me when I saw it, and I'm not easily impressed these days LOL

 

Like I said, not my cup of tea personally, and they do take some dedicated training and need to be kept on top of and under control, but certainly useful dogs, though whether they offer anything extra to a really good tough Beardie cross I don't know. A friend of mine has a line bred Beardie cross which does everything a Picardy would do, is just as brainy.

 

YOu should really ask Mark Treadwell who breeds the Picardy crosses, or someone who has seen more work than I have, to get the true and full picture.

Thanks for that Penny I did put up a thread a few weeks ago hoping to get some insight into this breed but it didn't materialise the way I hoped.Once again thanks for a very imformative post

[stevemac 442]

This has been a greatread and skycat I think you will have a lot of fun with her.

 

Dan I have seen what your saying with my own and a good friends dogs, Andrews dogs are for hunting foxes so the size and intensness isnt the same as a coyotee dog, however he has a stag bitch that is as good as any I have seen but she has an aloofness we joke and call her a snob because she keeps to her selfbut when hunting she is very intence always the first to sight the fox and always on the head. i have a first x deerhound greyhound grease lightning always makes the catch but a rear end graber wouldnt call her a sook as she takes some punishment but shes just not the quality of the first dog.

 

now because we both hunt on foot along creeks and in swamps full of reeds and the like we both have x breed stags to get a bit of nose and dogs that will push cover I have dogs with a bit of bull blood in mine 1/4,1/8 or somthing like that. andrew has a stagx with1/4 airdale blood hes just turned a year old both our dogs work in a simular way by pushing through cover and using their nose. Although he is only 12mnths old you can see the airdalex using its brain he seems to know where a fox will break from cover and be their when they do. hes not quite as fast as my dogs but fast enough to catch a fox he has been on quite a few foxes with the other dogs but yesterday caught hes first solo fox a good size adult male he went straight on the front end and shook the flees right out of it. As I said these are all fox dogs not the big strong coyote dogs I saw in the states but handy at their game all the same.

[Dan Edwards 1,134]

Great post as usual stevemac. I dont know nothing bout your foxes but I know a bit about ours and I can truely say that for the most part I dont own "fox dogs". They just aint up to the task at hand really. Them little fuckers around here can cut like a jack rabbit. I've seen a few taken though and the ones that were kinda "stalled" out or it was almost like they got a bit confused and were just overhauled. The ones that I tried to catch though that new what was up were damn near impossible to catch. At the catch though they break in two shakes like a cat.

[skycat 6,173]

Daytime foxes in the UK are equally hard to catch if they are in cover/woods etc. Out in the open they aren't fast enough to get away from a decent lurcher. At night they are much more difficult and seem to jink and turn better than any rabbit or hare. Dogs which can regularly take them on the lamp are damn good. I'd imagine the red fox is pretty much the same the world over: the two best lurchers I had for taking day time foxes round cover were 'die hard' hell on legs types, but only about 22-23". The bigger dogs just didn't have the nip and dash quickness round cover. This innocent looking 'pretty' thing is just over 22", but lightening fast and impervious to the knowledge that she'll get bitten: she is over 7 years old now and carrying a few injuries which make her less agile than she used to be, but she still lights up when she finds a fox LOL

[Casso 1,261]

Maybe its where your running your dogs but i have never found any quarry more difficult on the lamp compared to day time,,

[weasle 1,119]

Daytime foxes in the UK are equally hard to catch if they are in cover/woods etc. Out in the open they aren't fast enough to get away from a decent lurcher. At night they are much more difficult and seem to jink and turn better than any rabbit or hare. Dogs which can regularly take them on the lamp are damn good. I'd imagine the red fox is pretty much the same the world over: the two best lurchers I had for taking day time foxes round cover were 'die hard' hell on legs types, but only about 22-23". The bigger dogs just didn't have the nip and dash quickness round cover. This innocent looking 'pretty' thing is just over 22", but lightening fast and impervious to the knowledge that she'll get bitten: she is over 7 years old now and carrying a few injuries which make her less agile than she used to be, but she still lights up when she finds a fox LOL

She`s a nice type.

[skycat 6,173]

Maybe its where your running your dogs but i have never found any quarry more difficult on the lamp compared to day time,,

 

Probably right: nothing is ever more than 50 yards from thick cover on most of my permission, but it could also be cos I've got rubbish dogs LOL Hand on heart, I haven't got the line I used to have, and they were better generally speaking, just didn't live as long Got fed up with burying youngish dogs killed in action.

[skycat 6,173]

 

She`s a nice type.

Thank you: its a shame I'll never breed from her, but she's too mad for her own good and gets laid up too often: I lost her half sister out coursing, broke her back on a big dyke: only the good die young, but I'm getting too old to accept seeing my dogs kill themselves too often: life seems more precious as my age increases!