A---holes with dangerouse dogs

[gnasher16 30,121]

 

for a start you just contradicted your first paragraph in your second

 

i agree that each dog is different and that some dogs have a tendency towards dominance and I mean individual dogs not a breed or type of dog. the dog is a pack animal and acts as the pack dose if there's no structure or discipline then the dog assumes the role of alpha and dose what the hell he like and if he sees a threat as far as he's concerned its job to remove the threat and protect his pack.

 

saying a dog is bad or its got a screw lose is a cop out by the owner if the dog was given the the correct dicipline and boundaries then there would be no problem the only situation where a dog is aggressive due to no fault of the owner is when its a medical condition.

 

 

Absolute nonsense !.....so are we to believe that ALL serial killers had a bad upbringing ?...that it was their parents fault ?...that absolutely NO human beings are born evil ?......only the completely naive would simply assume that a dog is bad because of its environment !

 

How do i contradict my first paragraph with my second ?.....my first paragraph explains that anything born of nature has the capability to be bad,my second paragraph explains that something born bad in the wrong hands is likely to SHOW that badness.....

 

IF a dog has natural badness within its genetic makeup it wont necessarily show itself,but it may well do so with a bad owner......

 

IF a dog has no natural badness within its genetic makeup it wont show badness even with a bad owner !

 

In other words,there HAS to be some natural badness there to begin with,hence the expression " born bad "

 

Your " pack animal " talk is the same regurgitated nonsense thats been written over and over again for years.....most of todays dogs have long since forgot about their wild roots infact most of todays dogs apart from having 4 legs have very little resemblance to " dogs " at all,they have been humanised so much they dont know what " pack behaviour " is any more......like i said before,genetics does not lie,if you breed away from what something essentially is,the animal in front of you will show that in itself....breed a greyhound to a chihuahua over 5 generations and you will end up with a dog with very little characteristics of a racing dog !

 

The reality is,Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy etc may have had the nicest most stable upbringing possible,the fact they was BORN BAD means that badness is highly likely to manifest itself regardless of their environment.......for a dog we/the owner are their environment and have the ability to supress that natural capability to be " bad ".......but thats if that " naturally bad " dog happens to get itself a good owner ".....and dogs dont choose their owners !

Edited December 27, 2010 by gnasher16

[danw 1,748]

To be honest any one who gives an animal human characteristics is deluded dogs do not know what it is or means to be bad they cannot reason nor understand that what they are doing is wrong.If any thought is given to the subject it is plain to see that a dog only has to be bad by breaking a set of moral restrictions imposed by man it is our interpretation of its actions rather than reasoning on the animals part.

[lietome 138]

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Latest article, the alpha dog-gene

 

 

(Updated 1/11/07)

 

THE ALPHA-DOG GENE

 

 

 

Fighting dogs, or indeed dogs descended from a fighting origin are extraordinary compared to other breeds. I like to grade these breeds as “the elite†amongst canines, for these breeds are direct descendents, or at most descendents of descendents etc, etc, of bona-fide alpha stock.

 

Alpha dogs and bitches in a wolf pack are the only members in the pack that get to breed. They eat first, and do everything else in the pack before subordinate pack members are allowed to. They are also dominant over other pack members, and usually stronger and smarter as well. Most arguments in the pack are settled with conflict. This system cycles to ensure that only the best genes get passed on to future generations. This happens with all aspects of nature, Lions and other big cats, down to birds; only the best get to breed. Likewise in dogs and other domesticated animals used for work, only the best are allowed to get bred from by their Human owners, Charles Darwin called this cycle system EVOLUTION!

 

The fighting dogs come from a long history of dominant alpha stock . These dominant specimens have a strong desire to dominate; dominate over other dogs, dangerous animals (hunting drive) and over people if allowed. But what makes them stand out, even from alpha wild animals is, they have been genetically engineered to have a maverick attitude, to behave as individuals, and unlike true pack animals which most dogs are, to just “mill it out†on their own, whatever the consequences, a do or die trying attitude, this concentrated trait is known as gameness, not found in pack species and definitely not common in conventional guard breeds.

 

With my experience, what a pair of collie Lurchers achieve together against large quarry for example, a pit-bull/greyhound Lurcher usually will succeed the same on his own!

 

This is why I think the mentality of fighting dogs makes for a better guard/protection dog, besides that they have way more drive and are tenacious and also more physically endowed for this kind of duty. It takes a heck of a lot of courage for a dog to attack a man or another capable animal single handed. Most other domesticated breeds have descended from a long line none challenging i.e. subordinate stock, and these successive generations have been submissive and non challenging to their human owners, making for easy training and domestication.

 

Of course alpha specimens can be found in every litter born, that is nature, but in the fighting breeds, these traits are highly concentrated.

 

For instance, in a litter of Presas for example, I would say it is highly likely that 99% of the litter will be challenging to each other. One may stand out as more dominant, as in generic pet litters, but as a rule the consensus is that a very high percentage of that Presa litter will be fiercely dominant, combative, and challenging to its siblings. This is where the fighting breeds differ immensely, and I advise caution with these breeds if you are either inexperienced, or reluctant to use discomfort in training, i.e. harsh corrections. This goes for many other working breeds as well, but with the fighting breeds it is of particular importance.

 

With all dogs this dominance can very easily manifest itself into a serious aggression problem if not dealt with correctly from a young age. You, the dog owner and your immediate family that are all sharing the same space has to show dominance over the dog, otherwise it will quite happily assume the alpha roll, and become challenging, and this is I believe the underlying factor in dog attacks on there owners or family.

 

As I have stated previously, if you are of a mild, or gentle disposition, do not purchase one of these dogs. They are for more experienced dog handlers and professionals only. These breeds should not be raised as the average pooch, this includes most working breeds including border collies and working terriers!

[gnasher16 30,121]

To be honest any one who gives an animal human characteristics is deluded dogs do not know what it is or means to be bad they cannot reason nor understand that what they are doing is wrong.If any thought is given to the subject it is plain to see that a dog only has to be bad by breaking a set of moral restrictions imposed by man it is our interpretation of its actions rather than reasoning on the animals part.

 

 

Its called learned behaviour.....dogs do not make decisions based on right or wrong,they operate out of learned behaviour based on what they know/have been taught by us or have been genetically handed down.

 

Mauling a human being to death is not learned behaviour and is not genetically handed down....so where does it come from ?......some dogs or people for that matter are born with rare and unexplainable talents and qualities,just the same as some are born with rare and unexplainable faults be it physical or mental.....genetic freaks would be another name for them...... to think bad dogs dont exist and its all us humans fault because of how we raise them ....is living in cuckoo land !

Its like when you hear folk say " dont leave a dog on its own with kids because all dogs are capable of biting ".....BULLSHIT !....not ALL dogs are capable of biting its just our interpretation and common sense of not knowing what dogs will and what dogs wont......most dogs wont but theres a tiny % of dogs that will bite a human,we just dont know which ones they are.

Edited December 27, 2010 by gnasher16

[olim 28]

I agree to a degree that a dog can be bred badly and be agressive and dangerous with out a bad influence from the owner, it's just in the natre of the dog and it's genes.

[robo-christ 40]

i agree with everything you've said in this thread gnasher,but i wouldnt class animals as good and bad,thats all subjective imo.

we are all a product of both our genetics and our enviroment the same as they are.

[danw 1,748]

To be honest any one who gives an animal human characteristics is deluded dogs do not know what it is or means to be bad they cannot reason nor understand that what they are doing is wrong.If any thought is given to the subject it is plain to see that a dog only has to be bad by breaking a set of moral restrictions imposed by man it is our interpretation of its actions rather than reasoning on the animals part.

 

 

Its called learned behaviour.....dogs do not make decisions based on right or wrong,they operate out of learned behaviour based on what they know/have been taught by us or have been genetically handed down.

 

Mauling a human being to death is not learned behaviour and is not genetically handed down....so where does it come from ?......some dogs or people for that matter are born with rare and unexplainable talents and qualities,just the same as some are born with rare and unexplainable faults be it physical or mental.....genetic freaks would be another name for them...... to think bad dogs dont exist and its all us humans fault because of how we raise them ....is living in cuckoo land !

Its like when you hear folk say " dont leave a dog on its own with kids because all dogs are capable of biting ".....BULLSHIT !....not ALL dogs are capable of biting its just our interpretation and common sense of not knowing what dogs will and what dogs wont......most dogs wont but theres a tiny % of dogs that will bite a human,we just dont know which ones they are.

 

 

I am pleased we agree that dogs do not know wrong from right and that was the point of my post but to label some dogs as bad is anthropomorphism at it worst walt disney was the worlds greatest at imposing human values and traits on to animal characters and I feel that it is a line we must not cross animals are not human and do not share the same moral values as us.

I do also feel that it is most defiantly humans fault that we have dogs who show spontaneous/irrational aggression to humans it is a product of ill-conceived breeding, ill-conceived purchase and poor upbringing/training or to put it bluntly if puppy pedlars didn't sell shite dogs to shite owners we probably wouldn't be having this conversation

[littlefish 585]

Its like when you hear folk say " dont leave a dog on its own with kids because all dogs are capable of biting ".....BULLSHIT !....not ALL dogs are capable of biting its just our interpretation and common sense of not knowing what dogs will and what dogs wont......most dogs wont but theres a tiny % of dogs that will bite a human,we just dont know which ones they are.

 

So, would you leave a child and a dog in the same room unsupervised?

[gnasher16 30,121]

So, would you leave a child and a dog in the same room unsupervised?

 

 

Of course i wouldnt,i cant read a dogs mind so i use the common sense approach as i explained.....but to say ALL dogs are capable of biting is plain wrong.....they are not,we just dont know which ones would and which wouldnt hence safety is best.

[gnasher16 30,121]

I am pleased we agree that dogs do not know wrong from right and that was the point of my post but to label some dogs as bad is anthropomorphism at it worst walt disney was the worlds greatest at imposing human values and traits on to animal characters and I feel that it is a line we must not cross animals are not human and do not share the same moral values as us.

I do also feel that it is most defiantly humans fault that we have dogs who show spontaneous/irrational aggression to humans it is a product of ill-conceived breeding, ill-conceived purchase and poor upbringing/training or to put it bluntly if puppy pedlars didn't sell shite dogs to shite owners we probably wouldn't be having this conversation

 

 

Whatever anthropomorphism means i neither know or care.......what i do know is a dog that kills a human being is a bad dog within the confines of what as human beings in the world we live in make judgement......now while i accept that a dog wont necessarily see this as " bad " it certainly doesnt come natural to a domestic dog to kill a human the way it would come natural to a wild lion !....so within the world we live we can safely assume a dog that kills a human is bad !.....

What we are discussing here is the reasons for it and the good old nature versus nurture debate.......i believe that some dogs are born with bad traits,in this case bad meaning the capability to kill a human being.....you appear to believe that this is not possible and that any and every dog that kills or has killed a human did so because of something a human did be it bad breeding practise or the environment it was raised.......now while that sounds good it doesnt add up in reality,im sure im not the only one to have had a dog from a perfectly sound background who was raised very well,but witnessed the dog for no apparent reason turn in an instant......i have been unfortunate enough to experience this twice.....and so having spoken to many people and also looked at it from a common sense approach,i tend to believe that nature does not produce perfection and can infact produce the total opposite of perfection for no apparent reason,a word i can only describe as badness......something which we also see in the human world in both physical and mental forms.....lets face it if things born of nature were perfect where do non inherent physical or mental abnormalities come from......the laws of nature dont change just for dogs

Edited December 27, 2010 by gnasher16

[gnasher16 30,121]

we are all a product of both our genetics and our enviroment the same as they are.

 

 

Nearly all.....where do those dogs/people/birds/fish come from who are neither a product of their genetic inheritance OR a product of their environment ?......commonly described as the genetic freaks.

 

If a dog is not bred down off manbiters anywhere in its background and was not raised in a bad environment yet it attacks/kills a human....where does this streak of viciousness come from the moon ?

[greg64 2,826]

we are all a product of both our genetics and our enviroment the same as they are.

 

 

Nearly all.....where do those dogs/people/birds/fish come from who are neither a product of their genetic inheritance OR a product of their environment ?......commonly described as the genetic freaks.

 

If a dog is not bred down off manbiters anywhere in its background and was not raised in a bad environment yet it attacks/kills a human....where does this streak of viciousness come from the moon ?

i totally agree with that, some dogs are definately born bad,there just wired wrong end of

[robo-christ 40]

recessive genes maybe?maybe the dog at some point as a youngster realises attacking a human is just as satisfying as is attacking another animal.

 

Who knows? but im pretty certain the answer is either genetic (nature) or psychological (nurture)

[gnasher16 30,121]

Who knows? but im pretty certain the answer is either genetic (nature) or psychological (nurture)

 

 

Thats exactly what im saying,its neither !...if its genetic its passed on,meaning somewhere along the line at least 1 ancestor at some stage had to be a carrier........but what if none existed ?...........if its psycological,it would mean the dog has experienced " something " that has formed an unnatural emotional characteristic within that dog.....again,but what if none existed ?

 

So,what does that leave ?.....The law of nature,thats what it leaves....and the laws of nature are not always fair or pleasant.

 

Its about time us as students of dogs and dog breeding realised that not everything born of nature has a precise and simple explannation.......if it did we would ALL breed perfect dogs ALL of the time as we would have no excuse not to !....fortunately its a bit more interesting than that and as individuals we use our own understanding,which is often the difference between a well bred dog and a poorly bred dog....( a breeders understanding )

[rikjd 8]

i think its either genetic or down to poor upbringing, just because no known human biters are in a dogs recent line doesnt mean that it isnt there under the surface it only takes a recessive gene or a throw back to a trait from its ancestors to cause an aggressive dog, like in pitbulls and other fighting dogs you will get breeders sticking with a line in the hope that they will get that one game dog again further down the line, if they can and do get that trait whats to say a negative trait cant be carried in the same way in any dog. Also a lot of people will breed a dog without knowing its history so you get inbreeding which can cause its own problems, you could go on all day about the causes and never find that one concrete answer. In this case inbreeding could be a possibility as the dog was considered extinct in the UK due to having a very limited active gene pool.