1st cross weaton or collie cross

[swagboy 9]

i'm thinking of geting a larcher when i have moor time for one. but wont one that will work with the terriers cant macke up my mind whot to have. my father inlow has a irish weaton that knows his job verry well that i can use but that meens geting a gray bich and breeding her but i dont wont 2 runners or ill have to rehome the gray but then its a nother dog going from home to home and weatons cross dont cum up or do i go for a collie cross but will thay be up to the terrier work and not just the bush work

[Guest deerhound hunter]

the question you need ask yourself is what you going useing it mostly for and then ask the question again because different x are better then others and different jobs ,and if i was you i would,nt be be breeding yourself either buy a pup or a young unspoilt dog ,,,atb,,,,dh

[swagboy 9]

i will be lamping, moching and rating

 

the border collie x has to much bran and not a nuth go on the bigger stuff as the berdid has the go but still to much bran where the weaton has got the go and got the bran as well but not to much wich i think i will be having but no one has weaton x as the ball has toock over thay are licke gold dust so that is the only way i wood no whot i was geting but dont wont to go down that rout IMO

[Guest deerhound hunter]

both will do the job

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Why don't you look for a decent lurcher x lurcher who are both doing the job.

 

Bull/Deer/Grey x Saluki/Whippet/Grey for example.

 

Gaz

[GROUSE09 0]

wheaten everytime!! i can have my bitch stood on a peg shooting fetching game birds back and the next breath have her drawing out nasty critters. loads of brain and no reverse gear!!

[swagboy 9]

i no thay both will do the job but just wonted other people's views on both x's atb swag

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Out of interest, what qulaities do wheaten bring to lurcher world?

 

Not wanting to start a slanging match. I just don't know much about wheaten/grey Lurchers.

 

Im guessing tenacity and balls from terrier, what about feet? Brains? Etc.

 

Gaz

[stormyboy 1,352]

One of my best was wheaten x. Quick,agile and very game.Good feet and jacket and very capable of taking a range of quarry,despite being only 22.1/2".

Highly recommend one swagboy.

[Stabs 3]

 

My experience with lurchers comes from owning and working the types which are deemed “traditionalâ€, which were Bedlington based and Collie based. These are the ones which used to make up the field at many a game fair and have served hunters well over the years. As times and circumstances changed I found I needed a different type of lurcher around me and one that would fulfil a more substantive criteria than what I had been used to doing with my old dogs. I really wanted the strong terrier’s power and mentality in a running dogs body and that made me look outside of the types that I had previously owned. Many people have wondered how the Wheaten cross would compare to the more established types and I must admit that I was curious too. So when I was on the look-out for a new lurcher, a friend of mine came through for me and asked me if I wanted his 10 month old first cross Wheaten/Greyhound bitch, which I jumped at.

Now I knew some lads who had Wheaten based lurchers and I knew a fair few lads with the pure dogs too and this was a cross that really interested me. The first in-depth information I ever really heard about the Wheatens was at Ed Reid’s place when lads were talking about “Irish†Staffordshire Bull Terriers. The subject of strong dogs came up and the Wheatens were mentioned in the same breath as the Kerrys and they were spoken of as something almost mythical; some fantastic animal that had no faults and could do everything better than the dogs we had ourselves. The blokes I was speaking to had that look in their eyes when they spoke of these dogs and I still see it in some people today. They think the grass is always greener and go through dogs like nobody’s business. Now, for all I knew the Wheaten and the Kerry could have been all this and more, but what I wanted to know was why these lads yearned after one in the first place? They had “Irish†staffs on the ends of their leads that had big names in their pedigrees over and over again, but did they do anything with them? Of course not. But they must be good dogs though as the piece of paper says so! So what I couldn’t get my head round was that these boys had good dogs “in theory†stood at their feet which they did nothing with, so how could these Wheatens better that?

 

And why would they want one?

To do more nothing with but in a different manner?

 

I thought it would only be matter of time before they got hold of this type of dog and then I would bet you a pound to a penny, there’d be pups on the floor before you knew it. As it happened, the years went by and the idea kind of dissipated and to my surprise none of the lads got any. Maybe the Irish lads who work these dogs properly wouldn’t sell them one or maybe they just went off the idea. Anyway, not for the first time I was proved wrong, but in my defence my suspicions were realised a little bit later.

When I picked my lurcher up from a service station just over the English /Welsh border she was a real friendly bundle of light brindle fur, with what at first inspection seemed like a real nice, thick jacket. She was only a short bitch though, coming to around 20/21 inches and the shoulder, but wide with it, having thrown to the Wheaten side of the mating. She was out of the brother to a very good dog from Belfast who’d been put over a very good field working greyhound bitch, so she had quality on both sides of the mating. So many just use any old greyhound or bull or collie etc just because they are available, so when a bitch with this breeding came along I really couldn’t refuse.

Being only 10 months old, she was still very much a pup and when I introduced her to the existing pack at home, she got on with them famously. Immediately she pal’ed up with my other lurcher, the collie cross, and those two seemed to exclude the bull terriers from their play, despite their best efforts at joining in. The two lurchers would race around the garden all day long given the opportunity and it was nice to see them getting on so well. Meg (the Wheaten cross) proved to be a really nice dog to have around and she charmed my parents and people in the street as she had such a nice nature about her. During that summer I had her to a lot of shows just to socialise her and get her used to strange sights and sounds, and believe me, there’s a lot of both at game fairs! Whenever I was asked what her breeding was I tried to be evasive and vague, which comes easily to me anyway. On the odd occasion that I was pressed, I’d mutter something about her being terrier based, and casually mention something about Airedales, whilst trying to steer the conversation away to something else. My mates knew her breeding but to others I just kept quiet. You may find this strange behaviour, but in the back of my mind I could hear those conversations I’d been party to years before and to be honest I was scared of letting the cat out of the bag in the fear that the Wheaten would become the next fashionable cross of lurcher. Looking back this was clearly ridiculous as Meg was a 10 month old dog and hadn’t done a thing to warrant people coveting a dog like her, but I did have my suspicions that she would turn out ok in the long run.

As I was a pest controller back then, I didn’t have an off season as such, as the people I worked for wanted the rabbits and foxes killed all year round. Affording these vermin a breeding season made no sense to them so I worked my dogs when most folk were taking a well earned break. As soon as Meg found her feet and I could trust her recall and training (which, to give the bloke who trained her his due credit, was immaculate) I had her out with me as the new member in my pack. She took the place of the old male bull terrier and was soon in the swing of things. As it was now warming up a bit being summer, I’d stripped Meg’s jacket out so that she’d be a bit cooler when we were working. Gone was the teddy bear look which had endeared her to so many, now she looked a lot leaner. Her coat surprised me to be honest. I’d expected the Wheaten to lend a heavy, weatherproof jacket to the cross, but Meg’s coat was very linty, much like a Bedlington cross. Her coat was very thin and the slightest rain had her looking soaked through, unlike my other lurcher, who just has to give one shake and her jacket looks dry. The downside to this coat was that it picked up every single burr or thistle wherever we went. The beardie cross wouldn’t have anything in her coat, but once we were home, I’d spend ages going over Meg, removing all and sundry that she’d picked up on her travels.

The other thing she inherited from her father’s genes was her drive! Initially she was cold which surprised me again. With the beardie cross, I was the one holding her back when she was a pup as she wanted in on everything. I made the decision for Van (the beardie cross) that at seven months of age, she was ready for her first rabbit on the lamp. I remember the night like it was yesterday. I took her to a familiar spot where I knew there’d be a couple of sitters and gave her a slip. She had two runs that night and caught on her second. As soon as that rabbit squealed, the lamp was off and I was already fumbling in my Barbour pocket looking for the camera. With the photo taken, we were off back to the truck with the job done. Now I’d known she was ready for that run, otherwise I wouldn’t have taken her. I could have done it earlier if I’m honest, but there’s no harm in waiting and that seven month slip was just what she needed. Meg, on the other hand, was older than this and didn’t want to know about quarry in the slightest. The very first day I had her, the terriers put a rabbit out of an old tree stump by a stream and Meg just watched it run right past her, much my annoyance. This is the difference between the two lurcher types though. I often wonder how many headstrong collie types are ruined by over eager owners who, just because the dog is keen, overmatch their charge at too young an age. I certainly did with mine on foxes, but that was her own doing really as it was something she was exposed to from being a pup. The first fox Meg ever saw close up, was one that my terrier caught in thick cover beside a walnut plantation. As soon as the terrier caught, Meg and Van pushed their way in to the brambles to see what was what. Van stood off and barked, offering the occasional nip on the foxes arse, whilst Meg sauntered over, sniffed old Charlie and then sat there wagging her tail. I even have a photo of that split second where she was sniffing the fox as the black bitch was in the process of despatching it and it always raises a smile whenever I see it. I must admit to thinking the worst when this happened as I’d only ever had dogs that were mad keen before hand. I didn’t have long before those doubts were dispelled though, as Meg proved to me, just a few days after her first birthday, that she lived up to the reputation of that particular breeding. The incident in question happened one night after work and Meg, for whatever reason, decided that she’d reached the point where she was going to do some work and stop being a bystander. What effectively switched her on was, I think, the fact that this particular fox decided to give her some stick. She’d grabbed this fox and looked quite content to hold him as Van barked away at her side. As soon as Charlie thought if he was going to go, he may as well go out fighting, Meg demolished him and I mean she did a proper job on him! She’d gone from the playful pup, to looking like she’d been doing this her whole life in the blink of an eye. I went home a happy man that night.

One of the main differences between the two lurchers was that Van was a hunter. She was my ferreting dog and I relied on her to tell me where the rabbits were. From a very young age, she’d worked cover and used her nose to very good effect. Even when just out walking, she’d put bunnies up and many’s the time she’s brought me back bunnies when we have just been stretching our legs. This blended very well with the terriers as one of them was very similar, always working, always hunting, and the other was too clever for that and was always on hand to pick up game fleeing from the other two. Meg was very much like the latter style and she didn’t hunt as such. If Van was on to a fox, Meg used to go with her and she was then on hand to catch and kill it if given the opportunity. There was a track that cut through some scrub land where I’ve hunted for years and Van would always be running through the undergrowth, pushing rabbits out for the other dogs. Meg got to know this in short order and she stayed on the track as she’d worked out that the rabbits had to cross it in order to get to safety. As a hunting dog she had limitations, but as a killing dog, she more than made up for it. As it happens, she had issues with rabbits and you’d have to be bloody quick to her if you wanted one that wasn’t anything but fit for the ferrets! And yet she had the softest mouth when she was retrieving feather!

Once again I’d fallen between two stools with these dogs. On the one hand I had a dog that was a fantastic hunter and as a ferreting dog, was something decent. She would find foxes time and time again for us but she wouldn’t kill them. I was going to say “couldn’t†kill them, but she proved that she could with her first three. Wouldn’t is a more accurate word to use in this instance. On the other hand I had a point and slip merchant’s dream! A dog that made easy work of the killing business but wasn’t in the habit of going to find the quarry herself. As a team they worked, but they were specialists. Neither could do the other one’s job and as I try to do as much and as varied hunting as I can, they both had a role to play. Van’s domain was the Yorkshire Dales and Meg could not have done that job. Regardless of whether her nose was up to the task, she just didn’t have the physical attributes that Van possessed namely good feet and a good coat. Where I was running Meg in the South East there is a lot of flint and whereas Van never seemed to knock up, Meg did suffer from cuts. She had by no means bad feet, but they weren’t as strong as Van’s. If I had run Meg on some of the places we went in the Dales, I seriously think I’d have been carrying her off those tops. Thankfully a lot of my pest control duties were on nice black earth plough and grassy fields around streams and lakes. Having said all of that, if I was relying on Van to keep the local fox population down, then I’d have been out of a job pretty quick.

People often ask what the Wheaten crosses temperament is like and that’s something that I have some first hand experience of. If I had not had any other dogs at all, I would be sat here writing this and telling you that you wouldn’t find a better natured dog in the world. With people Meg was fantastic and she’d do the rounds looking for fuss from all of the family. She had such a sweet disposition which allied to her teddy bear looks, made her a firm favourite with everyone. Even for the first few months I would have said she was great with other dogs too, which she was really. The only times I had trouble with her was due to over-excitement. The first occasion was when I was digging to my black bitch in a spot local to me and I decided to let Meg have a look at the block end just to see if she was interested. Well she clearly was interested as instead of grabbing the quarry, she grabbed my black bitch on the way past! I suppose it’s the terrier in her but she would not let go and my little terrier was taking an absolute pasting from a 45lb bitch intent on killing her it seemed. One of the Polish farm hands that was with me that day looked terrified and I think it was the noise more than anything. Once I’d broken them off I kept hold of Meg and sent the terrier away. Meg’s mouth was full of blood and saliva and she sat as I held her, tail brushing the grass as she wagged away, happy as larry. She’d gone from having murder in her eyes to sweetness and light as quick as a flash. Having no boxes to separate the dogs in the car, the terrier and the two lurchers even travelled home together without a cross word and it really was as if nothing had happened. It seemed to me that Meg got herself wound up to the point that anything would do as long as it meant killing something and she just grabbed the first thing to hand. A trait she would display again.

I actually lost some permission due to Meg once, which I was not happy about at all. I was out shooting geese on a pond I worked and one of the birds dropped on the other side of this pond, winged. I had all of the dogs in the back of the car so I drove around to the other side of the pond in order to kill the goose. When I got there, I couldn’t find the bird at all and as its patches of scrub and raspberry canes, I was fighting a losing battle. I thought that the dogs would have a better chance of finding the goose than I did alone, so I let them out of the boot. A few minutes into the search and Van’s nose found the goose trail and she ran about three hundred yards with Meg in tow. Meg actually got the goose before Van, but Van considered this bird to be hers and I could hear a few growls. To cut a long story short, Van and Meg got in to a massive tear up, one which I shudder to think about even now. Another difference between the two dogs was that Van’s all threats and posturing, whereas Meg is all business. The screams coming from Van were blood curdling and I could see Meg was doing real damage. My bull bitch wanted a bit of this and I had to continuously break her off one dog and then try to break Meg off Van. I ended up throwing the bull bitch over a high fence in order to stop her from attacking the other two, but she just climbed it again and carried on. As it turned out, I did break Meg off and Van ran away to lick her wounds in solitary. The reason I lost my permission was throughout all of this farce I’d had an audience who were none too impressed with my dog handling skills and I can’t say I blame them.

Meg died a week after that incident so I wouldn’t ever know if she’d calm down or cause more mayhem and heartache. Since those days, I’ve seen the Wheaten cross grow in popularity and the various hunting websites are full of either pictures of them or questions about them. The most common question I see is how they compare to the bull cross and I suppose the most obvious difference is the coat. It can hide a multitude of sins in this day and age and I suppose that will attract people who either don’t like or can’t afford their dogs to wear their scars so openly. Let’s hope that the people out there who have the good dogs look after them and test them hard and only breed for their own ends. The working Wheaten Terrier is a rare breed so let’s also hope that the demand for the Wheaten lurcher doesn’t lead people to use any old dog for stud just because that’s what’s at hand. Maybe I am being overly optimistic as this very thing seems to have happened already with the bull crosses. I didn’t start this article in order to run the Wheaten lurcher down as I’m very fond of them. If it comes across as anything other than that then I’m guilty of not being able to convey my sentiments correctly. I’ve tried to give an idea of how mine were compared to the collie cross, both good points and bad.

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Very Interesting and informative post Stabs.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

cant add much to that. good enjoyable read. and i can relate to some of it sad early end to a promising young bitch.

[GROUSE09 0]

very good read stabs. sounds just like the wheaten bitch i had only some c*nt thought it would be easier to nick her than get their own.

[swagboy 9]

thank you a lot a good read as well

[fordie 8]

We have had all this before what type of Lurcher is best for this job and best for that job who cares if you want it for rabbiting all if you are doing alot of ferreting get a Bedlington/Whippet all a Whippet if you only want lamp for rabbits go for a Greyhound cross if you want to ferret and lamp hunt around in the day go for a Collie/Greyhound x all a Deerhound/Greyhound all both like me I got a Deerhound/Greyhound/Whippet if you are hunting fox I go for a Bullx all a Weatonx at the end of the day it is up you you have to live with it for the best part of 12 plus years

Edited December 13, 2010 by fordie