Exactly how far back does the running dog go in the UK ?

[DottyDoo 500]

i have a dog here that is a direct descendant of the dogs that were on the boat that saint patrick used to escape home from slavery in ireland. He is a good all round worker but cant break him to snakes.

 

 

 

 

[Skinny 29]

hey thats my funny thought for the month. All serious i too am fascinated by history of our humble mongrels.

[juckler123 707]

The oldest sighthound skeleton found was of a whippet type dog buried at stonehenge 4500bc did my head in when i first read that but the evidence is there atb

[Lennard 10]

Nice topic.

 

As far as I know the Saxons who lived here (Netherlands) and in Germany were swamp/forest people without running dogs. These people, we call the saxon tribe Britten in Dutch, moved to the UK islands around 1500 -600 BC. After them, around the year 0, the Celts moved in (maybe displaced the Britten). The Celts for sure had running dogs and horses as they decended from people from the plains between Hungary and India where both dogs and horses are useful/domesticated. The Celts expanded into Europe and France around the year 0 to 300 AD. At that time the Romans also expanded and Arrian (a roman officer) was stationed in Spain where he saw and owned running dogs and wrote his treatise on coursing around 150 AD. Almost all roman references to running dogs are from the celtic outskirts of the empire...roman hunting references from the core of the empire, Italy and Greece are mostly about scent hound use. The Celts moving to the UK from France for sure had running dogs and I bet they took them with them, around 100-300 AD. A bit later on Northern Atlantic France, also Celts, was "famous" for its big dark running dogs, these were also traded.

 

Here is a reasonable proof that Celts, here around 100 AD, had greyhound like dogs. A very similar bronze from the same period was found in Cloucestershire.

 

http://www.museumkennis.nl/lp.rmo/museumkennis/i000455.html

 

L

[Leeview 791]

Cant recall exactly but just outside Newcastle on Hadrians Wall,long since excavated and the artefacts removed to the museum on site,in one of the showcases there is a spoon handle in ivory thats carved beautifully with 2 dogs running a hare into it.Points to the Romans having them and thinking enough about them to incorporate them into everyday objects

Y.I.S Leeview

[Stabs 3]

Nice topic.

 

As far as I know the Saxons who lived here (Netherlands) and in Germany were swamp/forest people without running dogs. These people, we call the saxon tribe Britten in Dutch, moved to the UK islands around 1500 -600 BC. After them, around the year 0, the Celts moved in (maybe displaced the Britten). The Celts for sure had running dogs and horses as they decended from people from the plains between Hungary and India where both dogs and horses are useful/domesticated. The Celts expanded into Europe and France around the year 0 to 300 AD. At that time the Romans also expanded and Arrian (a roman officer) was stationed in Spain where he saw and owned running dogs and wrote his treatise on coursing around 150 AD. Almost all roman references to running dogs are from the celtic outskirts of the empire...roman hunting references from the core of the empire, Italy and Greece are mostly about scent hound use. The Celts moving to the UK from France for sure had running dogs and I bet they took them with them, around 100-300 AD. A bit later on Northern Atlantic France, also Celts, was "famous" for its big dark running dogs, these were also traded.

 

Here is a reasonable proof that Celts, here around 100 AD, had greyhound like dogs. A very similar bronze from the same period was found in Cloucestershire.

 

http://www.museumkennis.nl/lp.rmo/museumkennis/i000455.html

 

L

 

Lennard, your time-line is all stuffed up there mate, and you've got the Saxons and Celts in the wrong order.

[Paid 935]

There are pictish rock carvings of running type dogs, chasing deer, so I would say theyve been in these isles a very long time.

[Paid 935]

This isnt the carving i was looking for, but you can also see in this one, a running dog pulling a deer, just below the horse men.

 

[Shrophunter 7]

Ah the old Celtic myth again. You need to get up to date with modern genetic research. The "Celts" were not a people from the Hungarian/eastern plains who swept west to settle western europe.

The Celts lived in southern France/northern Spain as described by Caesar. They traded extensively with the western side of the British Isles and indeed some may have even settled here. However to describe the ancient inhabitants of Britain as "celtic" is now known to be totally wrong.

There was never a big "Celtic" invasion of Britain and nor were "Celtic" people pushed to the West by the advancing Saxons into places like Wales and Cornwall. DNA testing shows that the vast majority of British inhabitants are descended from people who settled here after the Ice age ended. There has been little new DNA inflow despite the Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc.

So most of us genetically are mesolithic hunters and the mesolithic (middle stone age - hunter gatherers) is when there is the first evidence in Britain of dogs being used to help us hunt. (Thats a couple of thousand years before Stonehenge)

Bearing in mind that at that time most of Britain was heavily forested and people tended to stick around the shorelines, a dog that hunted by scent and sight would be more likely. At that stage it wouldn't have been very refined and I'll stick my neck out and go for something that resembles a modern dingo.

Perhaps with the subsequent neolithic farming revolution and the opening up of farmland by cutting down vast areas of forest about 6/7000 years ago, running dogs may then have been developed - after all a running dog needs space to run and just because the people now farmed doesn't mean they didn't still hunt. Wild meat would still have been needed to supplement their corn. Only now they needed a faster dog to chase game in the open fields and would have started selectively breeding for speed.

Later, trade with the Phoenicians and Romans would undoubtedly have introduced further bloodlines from the Mediterranean to the gene pool, possibly desert type dogs.In short I'd say running dogs have been used here for a very long time. Just a thought. I'll duck back down under the parapet now !

Edited October 21, 2010 by Shrophunter

[Aaron Proffitt 142]

i have a dog here that is a direct descendant of the dogs that were on the boat that saint patrick used to escape home from slavery in ireland. He is a good all round worker but cant break him to snakes.

 

 

 

Classic...

[shaunpauls7 131]

Ah the old Celtic myth again. You need to get up to date with modern genetic research. The "Celts" were not a people from the Hungarian/eastern plains who swept west to settle western europe.

The Celts lived in southern France/northern Spain as described by Caesar. They traded extensively with the western side of the British Isles and indeed some may have even settled here. However to describe the ancient inhabitants of Britain as "celtic" is now known to be totally wrong.

There was never a big "Celtic" invasion of Britain and nor were "Celtic" people pushed to the West by the advancing Saxons into places like Wales and Cornwall. DNA testing shows that the vast majority of British inhabitants are descended from people who settled here after the Ice age ended. There has been little new DNA inflow despite the Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc.

So most of us genetically are mesolithic hunters and the mesolithic (middle stone age - hunter gatherers) is when there is the first evidence in Britain of dogs being used to help us hunt. (Thats a couple of thousand years before Stonehenge)

Bearing in mind that at that time most of Britain was heavily forested and people tended to stick around the shorelines, a dog that hunted by scent and sight would be more likely. At that stage it wouldn't have been very refined and I'll stick my neck out and go for something that resembles a modern dingo.

Perhaps with the subsequent neolithic farming revolution and the opening up of farmland by cutting down vast areas of forest about 6/7000 years ago, running dogs may then have been developed - after all a running dog needs space to run and just because the people now farmed doesn't mean they didn't still hunt. Wild meat would still have been needed to supplement their corn. Only now they needed a faster dog to chase game in the open fields and would have started selectively breeding for speed.

Later, trade with the Phoenicians and Romans would undoubtedly have introduced further bloodlines from the Mediterranean to the gene pool, possibly desert type dogs.In short I'd say running dogs have been used here for a very long time. Just a thought. I'll duck back down under the parapet now !

 

 

cracking write up mate enjoyed that

 

 

 

atb shaun

[DUCKWING 302]

Ah the old Celtic myth again. You need to get up to date with modern genetic research. The "Celts" were not a people from the Hungarian/eastern plains who swept west to settle western europe.

The Celts lived in southern France/northern Spain as described by Caesar. They traded extensively with the western side of the British Isles and indeed some may have even settled here. However to describe the ancient inhabitants of Britain as "celtic" is now known to be totally wrong.

There was never a big "Celtic" invasion of Britain and nor were "Celtic" people pushed to the West by the advancing Saxons into places like Wales and Cornwall. DNA testing shows that the vast majority of British inhabitants are descended from people who settled here after the Ice age ended. There has been little new DNA inflow despite the Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc.

So most of us genetically are mesolithic hunters and the mesolithic (middle stone age - hunter gatherers) is when there is the first evidence in Britain of dogs being used to help us hunt. (Thats a couple of thousand years before Stonehenge)

Bearing in mind that at that time most of Britain was heavily forested and people tended to stick around the shorelines, a dog that hunted by scent and sight would be more likely. At that stage it wouldn't have been very refined and I'll stick my neck out and go for something that resembles a modern dingo.

Perhaps with the subsequent neolithic farming revolution and the opening up of farmland by cutting down vast areas of forest about 6/7000 years ago, running dogs may then have been developed - after all a running dog needs space to run and just because the people now farmed doesn't mean they didn't still hunt. Wild meat would still have been needed to supplement their corn. Only now they needed a faster dog to chase game in the open fields and would have started selectively breeding for speed.

Later, trade with the Phoenicians and Romans would undoubtedly have introduced further bloodlines from the Mediterranean to the gene pool, possibly desert type dogs.In short I'd say running dogs have been used here for a very long time. Just a thought. I'll duck back down under the parapet now !

 

THERES A MAN THAT KNOWS

 

A WHILE AGO , I WATCHED A TIME TEAM [ YES IAM THAT SAD ] PROGRAM THAT WAS INTERESTED IN THE CHEDDAR GORGE DIGS , THEY STATED THAT HISTORIANS HAD TRACED THE DNA OF SOME VERY OLD SKELETONS THEY HAD FOUND TO MODERN DAY INHABITANTS OF THE SAME AREA !!

HAVE A LOOK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_Man

 

THE HISTORIANS HAVE USED THE EMIGRATION FROM THE MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS SPEECH FOR SO LONG THEY HAD STOPPED LOOKING , WE WERENT CELTS , BUT MORE ANCIENT BRITONS ,... TRAVELLING HERE BEFORE BRITION WAS SPLIT FROM THE REST OF EUROPE ...

TRADE OF COURSE OCCURRED , BUT NO DOUBT WE WERE KNOWN FAR AND WIDE FOR THE BEST DOGS THROUGH GOOD BREEDING AND HARD TESTING

 

 

ALL THE BEST

 

 

DUCKWING

[chimp 299]

This isnt the carving i was looking for, but you can also see in this one, a running dog pulling a deer, just below the horse men.

 

 

yeah whatever , i suppose your gonna tell me thats a pre ban pic next

[chimp 299]

i heard golly lines come from the original celtic stuff , gotta be worth £2000 a pup of anyones money

[dogs-n-natives 1,182]

Ah the old Celtic myth again. You need to get up to date with modern genetic research. The "Celts" were not a people from the Hungarian/eastern plains who swept west to settle western europe.

The Celts lived in southern France/northern Spain as described by Caesar. They traded extensively with the western side of the British Isles and indeed some may have even settled here. However to describe the ancient inhabitants of Britain as "celtic" is now known to be totally wrong.

There was never a big "Celtic" invasion of Britain and nor were "Celtic" people pushed to the West by the advancing Saxons into places like Wales and Cornwall. DNA testing shows that the vast majority of British inhabitants are descended from people who settled here after the Ice age ended. There has been little new DNA inflow despite the Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc.

So most of us genetically are mesolithic hunters and the mesolithic (middle stone age - hunter gatherers) is when there is the first evidence in Britain of dogs being used to help us hunt. (Thats a couple of thousand years before Stonehenge)

Bearing in mind that at that time most of Britain was heavily forested and people tended to stick around the shorelines, a dog that hunted by scent and sight would be more likely. At that stage it wouldn't have been very refined and I'll stick my neck out and go for something that resembles a modern dingo.

Perhaps with the subsequent neolithic farming revolution and the opening up of farmland by cutting down vast areas of forest about 6/7000 years ago, running dogs may then have been developed - after all a running dog needs space to run and just because the people now farmed doesn't mean they didn't still hunt. Wild meat would still have been needed to supplement their corn. Only now they needed a faster dog to chase game in the open fields and would have started selectively breeding for speed.

Later, trade with the Phoenicians and Romans would undoubtedly have introduced further bloodlines from the Mediterranean to the gene pool, possibly desert type dogs.In short I'd say running dogs have been used here for a very long time. Just a thought. I'll duck back down under the parapet now !

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