ScotHunter

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

I oncesaw Milosevic being interviewed,when asked why this war was happening he said,

 

"This is our country,we are a democracy,our people only have on average 2 children,the muslims out breed us 3 to one and are going to take our country over"

 

Now i know thats a simplistic view of the situation but it rings true for a lot of countries now being invaded by muslims,democratic systems arent very muslim breeding proof,my town is already doomed.

 

At least the Serbs had the balls to stand up for their own rights,unlike us.

 

Yeah they had the courage to stand up for their people, but the Bosnian Serbs even thought that Milosevic was a little too methodical.

 

It wasn't just the fact that the Bosnian Serbs were being out bred either, it's the fact that the Bosniaks had Izetbegovic as their leader who was drumming up these nationalistic idea's. He was looking for a Muslim run Bosnia and wanted out of Yugoslavia when the entire Bosnian Serb population wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people who had been there for a thousand or so years! There's no way the Serb's could allow the entire Bosnian Serb population to be butchered and forced out.

 

The Serbs had interests in that region and Bosnia was still internationally recognised as part of Yugoslavia so they can't even call it an invasion.

 

If things in this country are allowed to carry on the way they are going, then in a couple of 100 years time or so, It wouldn't surprise me if the Muslim people will be pushing for their own region with in Great Britain, which I fear could cause the same sort of trouble.

[Ideation 8,216]

Right now your using propaganda as fact, i'm not sure i want to continue this convo mate.

[Ideation 8,216]

A very large percent of those who were being attacked by the serbs were not bosnian muslims but Bosniaks - people who lived in Bosnia, serbs, croats etc. I enjoyed talking to you Fell and if you would like to continue this convo we can do it by PM. But i cant be f****d with it turning into yet another dull anti muslim in u.k thread with all the usual idiots commenting with no basis of knowledge.

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Right now your using propaganda as fact, i'm not sure i want to continue this convo mate

 

Where am I using propaganda?

 

I've just said what I think is true about this war. I could of said the same thing about you saying that Karadzic was the one responsible for putting snipers up in the mountains to shoot women and children but I didn't, and still want to learn more of what you know because this is something that really does interest me.

 

A very large percent of those who were being attacked by the serbs were not bosnian muslims but Bosniaks - people who lived in Bosnia, serbs, croats etc. I enjoyed talking to you Fell and if you would like to continue this convo we can do it by PM. But i cant be f****d with it turning into yet another dull anti muslim in u.k thread with all the usual idiots commenting with no basis of knowledge.

 

I'm not sure you're right on that one mate, Bosniaks are Bosnian Muslims, I'm pretty sure of that. They're all Bosnians being from Bosnia and ethnically they're all the same, Croatians predominantly Catholic Slavs, Serbians predominantly Orthodox Christian Slavs and Bosniaks Muslims Slavs. And the Serbs from Serbia came in to protect the Bosnian Serbs, not to kill them.

 

Ideation it doesn't have to turn into one of those threads, I thought things were going well?

 

I'll ask anyone who wants to join in on the debate not to bring any anti British Muslim views as it has nothing to do with this topic! So please gents lets not go down that road again .

 

Cheers.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Attack Fell Terrier

[Ideation 8,216]

Hello Mate, wrote that tired last night. It was meant to read, not just Bosnian muslims but Bosnians etc, rather than Bosniaks (your are correct that these are folk with traditional ties to the region and are mainly of muslim 'decent', which doesnt make them a practicing muslim in anyway). And the propaganda stuff was regarding the idea that the muslims were out breeding everyone else, and that this is going on here also. For starters there are a lot of slavic catholics in the region who have the same attitude toward family size and contraception. Also where does the suggestion that all Bosnians wanted to break away from Yugo come from? Most didn't but when it fell apart they hardly had a choice. And the idea that thousands of bosnian serbs were going to be slaughtered is also fiction. Some of this stuff is EXACTLY what a lot of the serbian populace outside Bosnia were told in order to get them hyped up for going into Bosnia, mostly it was just excuses for carrying out what had been decided at Karadordevo.

 

 

You are right its a good convo and i would like to continue it, i'm not sure how appropriate it is for an open forum though?

 

JUst a couple of other points before i head off to work. You say the Serbs came in to protect Bosnian serbs - i think they came in on the pretense of protecting the bosnian serbs, and many did welcome them, but also plenty of Bosnian serbs fought on the Bosnian side, including thousands at the battle of Sarajevo, these people were shot and bombed by the Serb forces just like everyone else.

 

As for the Sniper thing - well we have all seen the tv footage, but that could be misleading. So i'm basing my belief in that, in two things, the dead sisters, mothers, sons, wives etc of people i know and the huge number of conversations and interviews i've been part of with folk that were there, where they have confirmed what was hapenning. It was a total war on the city and the marksmen were told to shoot anything that moved. These conversations took place, not just with folk that were inside Sarajevo, but also some of those doing the shooting. They were using the ski jumps from the winter olympics as a shooting platform. I also spoke to folk who were at the battle for mostar, again on both sides, and it was confirmed by a few that they used to watch the bridge that ran across to the red cross food center and pick folk off as they tried to cross. .. .. .. . sometimes they wouldnt shoot for a day or so so that folk thought that it was safe and then start shooting again.

 

Just like in our country, a huge amount of propaganda was spread at the time to paint the muslims as an evil people who were a threat to serbain way of life, and the chances of a 'pure' unified serbian homeland. This propaganda was fed to folk who had never had any contact with muslims or had an axe to grind and was used as an excuse to ethnicly cleanse the area in order to redistribute the land. Unfortunatly there were some like Izetbegovic whos very public ideals were perfect for holding up as an example of 'Bosnian' thinking - but it was a minority.

 

And yes i also worry that the same thing could happen here. . . . . . .but i think for different reasons?

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Thanks for the reply

 

Hello Mate, wrote that tired last night. It was meant to read, not just Bosnian muslims but Bosnians etc, rather than Bosniaks (your are correct that these are folk with traditional ties to the region and are mainly of muslim 'decent', which doesnt make them a practicing muslim in anyway).

 

Yes! that's what I am lead to believe, a lot of the Bosniak people were not practising Muslims, and were only really Muslim historically (if that makes sense). Much like many English people who come from a Christian background yet haven't ever picked up a bible and read it or ever attended Church.

 

I'm not trying to say the Bosniak people were all fanatical Muslims but when push comes to shove and you're forced to take a side, then it soon becomes a us and them situation. Their leader Izetbegovic was a radical Muslim, and I do believe it was his plan to have an Islamic state with in Europe. As Yugoslavia was breaking up he thought he'd seize his chance to fulfil that dream of his.

 

And the propaganda stuff was regarding the idea that the muslims were out breeding everyone else, and that this is going on here also. For starters there are a lot of slavic catholics in the region who have the same attitude toward family size and contraception. Also where does the suggestion that all Bosnians wanted to break away from Yugo come from? Most didn't but when it fell apart they hardly had a choice.

 

Well there are more Bosniaks in Bosnia than anyone else mate, The Croats were the biggest Catholic population in Bosnia and they only made up 14-15% of the population, the Serbian Catholic population wasn't in any way significant as most Serbs are Orthodox Christians. In other words Catholic's were in the vast minority compared to the other religious groups so I'm not sure I agree with your comparisons there.

 

Bosniaks made up nearly half of the entire population of Bosnia, which is no surprise because ethnically thats where they belong.

 

And the idea that thousands of bosnian serbs were going to be slaughtered is also fiction. Some of this stuff is EXACTLY what a lot of the serbian populace outside Bosnia were told in order to get them hyped up for going into Bosnia, mostly it was just excuses for carrying out what had been decided at Karadordevo.

 

I don't know how you can say that with any confidence at all to be honest mate. There were already Serbs going missing, women being raped and murders happening by people coming from out side of Serbian villages in certain parts of Bosnia, that's no mystery, Bosnian Serbs were already being brutalised! It was only 40 or so years before that the Serbs were persecuted and killed in their hundreds of thousands. The people that committed the crimes against them in WWII were mainly Croats, but the Croats we're being fiercely nationalistic around the late 's early 90's and thought that a large part of Bosnia belonged to them. I think the Serbs had every right to fear for their safety, and they needed help!

 

You've got to also think about the troubles the 600,000 Serbs were having in Croatia at the time as well, as Croatia pushed for independence (and the Bosniak's wanted the same) many Bosnian Serbs were suffering.

 

You are right its a good convo and i would like to continue it, i'm not sure how appropriate it is for an open forum though?

 

JUst a couple of other points before i head off to work. You say the Serbs came in to protect Bosnian serbs - i think they came in on the pretense of protecting the bosnian serbs, and many did welcome them, but also plenty of Bosnian serbs fought on the Bosnian side, including thousands at the battle of Sarajevo, these people were shot and bombed by the Serb forces just like everyone else.

 

That maybe right, but if they're fighting against an army that by rights is protecting it's own territory (As Bosnia was Yugoslavian territory at the time) then what else do you expect?

 

Fair enough if they wanted their independence, but you don't force independence by being aggressive, then cry about it when your armed forces get the bejesus knocked out of them. You do it diplomatically! Although he talked a good game Izetbegovic wasn't interested in diplomacy, he wanted the trouble!

 

As for the Sniper thing - well we have all seen the tv footage, but that could be misleading. So i'm basing my belief in that, in two things, the dead sisters, mothers, sons, wives etc of people i know and the huge number of conversations and interviews i've been part of with folk that were there, where they have confirmed what was hapenning. It was a total war on the city and the marksmen were told to shoot anything that moved. These conversations took place, not just with folk that were inside Sarajevo, but also some of those doing the shooting. They were using the ski jumps from the winter olympics as a shooting platform. I also spoke to folk who were at the battle for mostar, again on both sides, and it was confirmed by a few that they used to watch the bridge that ran across to the red cross food center and pick folk off as they tried to cross. .. .. .. . sometimes they wouldnt shoot for a day or so so that folk thought that it was safe and then start shooting again.

 

I respect your input in this thread but I've got no way of knowing if that is the truth or not? I have got a problem with taking some ones word as gospel truth when I can't see any evidence to back up what they're saying. The people who actually took part in the war (I think the majority of the time) will be biased and even tell straight out lies sometimes to justify the inexcusable things they've done themselves, and that goes for both sides. Arkan was an example of what I mean.

 

It maybe true but people who commit war crimes will tell lies to try and get themselves off the hook. Look at all the SS soldiers in WWII who have said I was just following orders, and that they wouldn't of done what they did do if they hadn't been told to do it, should we believe them?

 

Just like in our country, a huge amount of propaganda was spread at the time to paint the muslims as an evil people who were a threat to serbain way of life, and the chances of a 'pure' unified serbian homeland. This propaganda was fed to folk who had never had any contact with muslims or had an axe to grind and was used as an excuse to ethnicly cleanse the area in order to redistribute the land. Unfortunatly there were some like Izetbegovic whos very public ideals were perfect for holding up as an example of 'Bosnian' thinking - but it was a minority.

 

And yes i also worry that the same thing could happen here. . . . . . .but i think for different reasons?

 

Mate this is where our opinions differ, The Serbs didn't want to make it into one big massive Serbian homeland they wanted to keep Yugoslavia together! Izetbegovic didn't want that and done a great job (with American help) to make out they were the only sufferers in this war and were being persecuted, when in fact it was Izetbegovic himself that was responsible for a lot of the bloodshed.

[scothunter 12,609]

well i can honestly say i really enjoy reading this thread very imformative and your obviously well read fell and idealation aswell.think as fell has said its not just a clear cut blame the serbs because they were demonised by the world media.oh and i said even though i have sympathy towards derbia i well aware of the attrocities commited by them as much as the mass killings by the croats.fell is right arkan even though he may have been fighting for serbia he had his agenda and just look at his history before the war,bank robber hitman gangster and not to mention his escape from a few jails in europe and being wanted by interpol.but to blame the whole serbia army isnt fair and the tigers were not exactly an army they were volunteers and a paralimilitary unit and we all know the track record of those types.

 

You mentioned the SS fell,well im a firm believer even though people mock the phrase "I was only following orders" it is exactly just that.put yourself in their position if they refused what you reckon would happen to them.im not condoning what some units (einsatzgruppen being the worse,and in all probability excelled themselfs in their cruelty)but as i said before war never brings the good out in people only the worst.anyway good thread and good to see it didnt end up a slagging match and firing insults around.the way it should be

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

well i can honestly say i really enjoy reading this thread very imformative and your obviously well read fell and idealation aswell.think as fell has said its not just a clear cut blame the serbs because they were demonised by the world media.oh and i said even though i have sympathy towards derbia i well aware of the attrocities commited by them as much as the mass killings by the croats.fell is right arkan even though he may have been fighting for serbia he had his agenda and just look at his history before the war,bank robber hitman gangster and not to mention his escape from a few jails in europe and being wanted by interpol.but to blame the whole serbia army isnt fair and the tigers were not exactly an army they were volunteers and a paralimilitary unit and we all know the track record of those types.

 

It wasn't just the Serbian army that was blamed but the entire Serbian population more or less were demonized. They copped the blame for everything, when really I don't think they were to blame.

 

You mentioned the SS fell,well im a firm believer even though people mock the phrase "I was only following orders" it is exactly just that.put yourself in their position if they refused what you reckon would happen to them.im not condoning what some units (einsatzgruppen being the worse,and in all probability excelled themselfs in their cruelty)but as i said before war never brings the good out in people only the worst.anyway good thread and good to see it didnt end up a slagging match and firing insults around.the way it should be

 

I've no doubt that some soldiers were just following orders, but the SS were a different kettle of fish to your normal soldier weren't they. They were programmed to kill and to decimate everything in front of them, and although they would of had their orders they were rampant and I think some of the blame for the things they done have to lie with the individual.

 

You know if they had the orders to take a town, they don't really have to fill barns with the towns people and butcher them in some of the worst ways you can think of.

 

But then maybe I don't know as much as I should? Who knows?

 

I've really enjoyed this thread so far, I know Ideation and myself haven't always seen eye to eye and we don't exactly have the same view on this war, but it's good to talk about it, so thanks for the contribution it's been good .

[Ideation 8,216]

Alright mate - reply coming soon as but might not be tonight as i gotta head out with dogs. Cracking discussion With regard to stories i tell i'm telling the truth and have good reason to belive those i spoke to also told the truth. . . . . . the situation it was in and the fok i was with kind of ensured that a little . . . . . . . long story.

 

Edited to say. . . . .and i've seen the bodies. Horrible as it sounds. . . . it's true!

Edited August 26, 2010 by Ideation

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Alright mate - reply coming soon as but might not be tonight as i gotta head out with dogs. Cracking discussion With regard to stories i tell i'm telling the truth and have good reason to belive those i spoke to also told the truth. . . . . . the situation it was in and the fok i was with kind of ensured that a little . . . . . . . long story.

 

Edited to say. . . . .and i've seen the bodies. Horrible as it sounds. . . . it's true!

 

OK mate, have a good'un with the dogs.

[scothunter 12,609]

well i can honestly say i really enjoy reading this thread very imformative and your obviously well read fell and idealation aswell.think as fell has said its not just a clear cut blame the serbs because they were demonised by the world media.oh and i said even though i have sympathy towards derbia i well aware of the attrocities commited by them as much as the mass killings by the croats.fell is right arkan even though he may have been fighting for serbia he had his agenda and just look at his history before the war,bank robber hitman gangster and not to mention his escape from a few jails in europe and being wanted by interpol.but to blame the whole serbia army isnt fair and the tigers were not exactly an army they were volunteers and a paralimilitary unit and we all know the track record of those types.

 

It wasn't just the Serbian army that was blamed but the entire Serbian population more or less were demonized. They copped the blame for everything, when really I don't think they were to blame.

 

You mentioned the SS fell,well im a firm believer even though people mock the phrase "I was only following orders" it is exactly just that.put yourself in their position if they refused what you reckon would happen to them.im not condoning what some units (einsatzgruppen being the worse,and in all probability excelled themselfs in their cruelty)but as i said before war never brings the good out in people only the worst.anyway good thread and good to see it didnt end up a slagging match and firing insults around.the way it should be

 

I've no doubt that some soldiers were just following orders, but the SS were a different kettle of fish to your normal soldier weren't they. They were programmed to kill and to decimate everything in front of them, and although they would of had their orders they were rampant and I think some of the blame for the things they done have to lie with the individual.

 

You know if they had the orders to take a town, they don't really have to fill barns with the towns people and butcher them in some of the worst ways you can think of.

 

But then maybe I don't know as much as I should? Who knows?

 

I've really enjoyed this thread so far, I know Ideation and myself haven't always seen eye to eye and we don't exactly have the same view on this war, but it's good to talk about it, so thanks for the contribution it's been good .

 

fair point fell,this i do know though you will find the attrocities that the SS were imfamous for were carried out by volunteers mainly made up of ukrainians and lithuanians who were overly zealous in there inhialation of the jews and the gypsys.its a common mistake made by a lot of people that.they hated those people and more than willing in killing on mass.i hasten to add that although the SS may not have been directly responsible they certainly fuelled the hatred and encouraged it.but im getting off topic here sorry.yea glad we can debate in an adult manner with this thread.yea im the same idealation and me had a few arguments in the past but he certainly can debate in a civil manner as do you fell learned a lot from this thread i was in no way clued up on it but did take an interest. cheers guys for the education.