Paperwork with FAC.

[wanderinstar 1]

I have at last got my FAC. One question. When I buy a gun there was 3 copies of a form that I presume has to be filled in with details of acquired firearm/shotgun and returned to police. But does the actual FAC have to be returned as well?

 

Another thing that is on the cert. is a mentoring condition for a .223, which I was expecting, But also for the .22 rimfire. Apparently this is due to some "Richard" in Cumbria. I thought the Tories said they would not review gun laws till the dust had settled. They haven't allowed much time in Lancashire.

 

Ian.

[matt_hooks 188]

Another thing that is on the cert. is a mentoring condition for a .223, which I was expecting, But also for the .22 rimfire. Apparently this is due to some "Richard" in Cumbria. I thought the Tories said they would not review gun laws till the dust had settled. They haven't allowed much time in Lancashire.

 

Ian.

 

Did you agree that you were happy to accept the mentoring condition on the .22? Of course they can put these conditions on, but if you understood that there wouldn't be that condition, and then they added it, I think you should go back and ask them why they've arbitrarily added it!

 

It's not for them to change policy because of an event like that. The HO and ACPO guidance is still the same, there's no reason for changing how they issue!

 

I might be tempted to have a word with the firearms licencing department of your favourite shooting organisation!

 

I'm waiting for mine to come through, hoping that they won't try the same trick on me!

[JonathanL 4]

I have at last got my FAC. One question. When I buy a gun there was 3 copies of a form that I presume has to be filled in with details of acquired firearm/shotgun and returned to police. But does the actual FAC have to be returned as well?

 

Another thing that is on the cert. is a mentoring condition for a .223, which I was expecting, But also for the .22 rimfire. Apparently this is due to some "Richard" in Cumbria. I thought the Tories said they would not review gun laws till the dust had settled. They haven't allowed much time in Lancashire.

 

Ian.

 

You do not have to return your FAC to the cops when you acquire a firearm. Given how long my local force takes to deal with FAC's I'd strongly advise letting them getr hold of it for any reason at all. Not the problem of the people in the department as they are grossly understaffed.

 

I don't know what form they are giving you to fill in to notify them of new guns but there is no officially required form to do this. You can just do it by letter. I forget what the precise information that is required is but it's along the lines of what is necessary to identify the individual gun.

 

Also you should note that many forces say that they will accept the notification by fax or email but the Firearms Act (as amended) requires that it be sent by recorded delivery! If you do not send it recorded delivery then you commit an offence and it does not become legal just because the police tell you it is.

 

J

[wanderinstar 1]

I have at last got my FAC. One question. When I buy a gun there was 3 copies of a form that I presume has to be filled in with details of acquired firearm/shotgun and returned to police. But does the actual FAC have to be returned as well?

 

Another thing that is on the cert. is a mentoring condition for a .223, which I was expecting, But also for the .22 rimfire. Apparently this is due to some "Richard" in Cumbria. I thought the Tories said they would not review gun laws till the dust had settled. They haven't allowed much time in Lancashire.

 

Ian.

 

You do not have to return your FAC to the cops when you acquire a firearm. Given how long my local force takes to deal with FAC's I'd strongly advise letting them getr hold of it for any reason at all. Not the problem of the people in the department as they are grossly understaffed.

 

I don't know what form they are giving you to fill in to notify them of new guns but there is no officially required form to do this. You can just do it by letter. I forget what the precise information that is required is but it's along the lines of what is necessary to identify the individual gun.

 

Also you should note that many forces say that they will accept the notification by fax or email but the Firearms Act (as amended) requires that it be sent by recorded delivery! If you do not send it recorded delivery then you commit an offence and it does not become legal just because the police tell you it is.

 

J

[wanderinstar 1]

Dont know how that happened. The last reply, that is.

The form is a "Notification of Transfer of Firearm/Shotgun" form.

Has anyone else had this mentoring condition on there FAC?

[JonathanL 4]

Dont know how that happened. The last reply, that is.

The form is a "Notification of Transfer of Firearm/Shotgun" form.

Has anyone else had this mentoring condition on there FAC?

 

The form they send out has no legal force, you are not required to fill it in. The requirement to make the notification comes from sec.33 of the Firearms (amendment) Act;

 

Sec.33

 

As sub-section (3) says, the notification "shall" (which means "must") be sent via recorded delivery but need to be in any particular form as long as it meets the other requirements of s.33.

 

J.

Edited June 19, 2010 by JonathanL

[wanderinstar 1]

Cheers Jonathon. But has anyone else had this mentoring condition for a .22 rimfire or is it just starting after Cumbria or is it a mistake.

I have a feeling it might be the former

[TopDown 0]

My FEO wanted me to have a mentoring condition for .22LR, .17HMR and FAC Air. Managed to demonstrate some experience with rifles already so don't have the condition. If you have previous experience then might be worth asking them if they will accept this and remove the condition or as stated above - get onto a shooting organisation and get their advice and help

[trooperman 73]

hi mate think i know what form you mean over here in the cambs police area we get a paper from the dealer it just says that they have sold the required calibre on the licence and it is just a sale or transfer paper it lets the licencing authority know you have purchased that specific calibre and where it has come from i.e dealer or private.

 

regards your mentoring i cant help you never had the restriction on my ticket so dont know but i have heard of people getting this on there ticket think to some extent depends how you come across to them i have had my FAC/SG for over 25 yrs and told the FLO what i wanted and what i wanted it for and got the lot but there again i do shot with my FLO as known him for 35 yrs.

 

 

paul

[magyarman 0]

I have at last got my FAC. One question. When I buy a gun there was 3 copies of a form that I presume has to be filled in with details of acquired firearm/shotgun and returned to police. But does the actual FAC have to be returned as well?

 

Another thing that is on the cert. is a mentoring condition for a .223, which I was expecting, But also for the .22 rimfire. Apparently this is due to some "Richard" in Cumbria. I thought the Tories said they would not review gun laws till the dust had settled. They haven't allowed much time in Lancashire.

 

Ian.

Not another police force acting above the law - surely? This mentoring condition has no basis in law and neither is it not part of the Home Office guidance to the police (which in itself is only Guidance and not the law) on how the administering of firearms applications et cetera should be undertaken by the police. The guidance was issued to try and ensure parity (consistency of practice)between all the forces of the UK (ok - stop laughing!)and sets out certain conditions that are proscribed i.e. must be applied and others that can be applied. The HO do however state that the wording of the suggested conditions that may be applied should be used except under exceptional circumstances - you're one of the hundreds of people who have had this (illegal) condition applied so it's not exceptional - phone the feds and ask them to remove it and to confirm in writing exactly why they have chosen to go against Home Office guidance - see below:-

 

"Possible conditions which may be applied are listed at Appendix 3 as a guide to firearms licensing officers. They should be used, where the individual circumstances require it, to ensure consistency of practice between police forces. Exceptionally, chief officers of police may impose other conditions appropriate to individual circumstances. As the courts have held (R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland,

1998) that there is no right of appeal against the imposition of conditions (as opposed to a refusal to grant or renew a certificate)

chief officers will wish to be cautious in imposing conditions that might amount to a constructive refusal to grant or renew a certificate, that is additional conditions that would make possession or use so difficult as to be redundant in practice.

 

I've checked the guidance and there is nothing in appendix 3 relating to so called mentoring - what the feds are effectively saying is that you can't be trusted with said firearm yet - if that's the case then they themselves have acted wrongly again by issuing a FAC as "Before issuing or renewing a firearm certificate, the chief officer of police must be satisfied that the applicant can be permitted to have the firearm(s)/ammunition in their possession without danger to the public safety or to the peace.

Seek advise - George Wallace at the National Gamekeepers Organisation really knows his stuff. Hope this is of some help.

[matt_hooks 188]

I'm going to guess that this little gem of obfuscation:-

 

Exceptionally, chief officers of police may impose other conditions appropriate to individual circumstances.

 

Is the part of the guidance that the police are relying on to get away with imposing their own arbitrary rules and conditions.

 

I've got over 15 years of rifle experience in different calibres, and the FEO was talking about imposing mentoring on me. Erm... I don't THINK so mr!

[magyarman 0]

I'm going to guess that this little gem of obfuscation:-

 

Exceptionally, chief officers of police may impose other conditions appropriate to individual circumstances.

 

Is the part of the guidance that the police are relying on to get away with imposing their own arbitrary rules and conditions.

 

I've got over 15 years of rifle experience in different calibres, and the FEO was talking about imposing mentoring on me. Erm... I don't THINK so mr!

I can see where you're coming from but, and I may be wrong to presume that, as is the case with South Wales Police currently, the mentoring condition was applied without prior discussion or knowledge of the applicant. However this so called mentoring condition is starting to be applied arbitrarily by numerous forces across the UK so, as previously stated, it is in no way exceptional and as per the cited case law and HO guidance the feds should not have applied it. Having had experience of arguing till I was blue in the face with SWP's previous chief firearms administrator (that's all they are - there to administer the law, not create new ones) over her complete failure to properly administer my application for a hi-cap shotgun (sorted out after, I kid you not, 52 letters betwixt myself, the feds and the Home Office) my sympathies go out to the applicant. If I have presumed incorrectly and the applicant agreed to the condition then I don't think he has much to go on. However, if it has been applied arbitrarily then the applicant should complain firstly to the force in question and if, as will probably be the case, he has no joy, then he should commence a complaint to the independant police complaints commission - we do not simply have to sit back and accept this current poor level of service and until we all start complaining, as i did, to the proper channels about the shockingly poor level of service and lack of knowledge of the legislation surrounding the licensing personnel's jobs, then nothing will change. Kind regards.