got a query

[arveyboy 0]

ok from what i understand a good head on a buck is a sign of an all round buck. what i dont understand is why so many stalkers are constantly on the lookout for great heads. (not great head everyones looking for that). i understand the sporting aspect of it, getting a good trophy etc, however, am i right in saying that alot of stalkers are careful in their culling in that they will leave a good buck to spread its good genes and cull the poorer bucks??? or is it all about getting the best bucks you can get?

 

jack

[matt_hooks 188]

A lot depends on exactly why you're shooting them. If it's for deer management, then you will try and shoot the weaker, poorer, older or sick animals, to improve the stock. Occasionally they will take good animals that are becoming a problem due to feeding habits or location.

 

If someone has paid to shoot a beast, then they will most likely be looking for the best head they can get. These are the types who maybe shoot one or two animals a year, and a stalk is a huge treat (and often a very expensive one at that!). They like to have something to show for the outlay. Of course that's a generalisation, some are perfectly happy to shoot cull animals, as they see the stalk as the important bit.

 

Then there are those who lease large areas of stalking, on a long term, exclusive basis. They will take a mix of deer, though their priorities will tend towards the deer management approach. They will want to improve the stock so that they have more good animals to shoot in following years, but they will take the odd good animal for trophy, or allow friends to shoot a good buck.

[SHOTGUNSNIPER 47]

The first record books that measured antlers were created by biologists for documenting to produce an average and get an idea of what a representative buck would look like.

These record books were copied by hunting organizations like Safariu Club International , Boone and Crocket and Pope and Young. These record books have minimal score requirements for making an entry.... Each type of animal weather it has antlers or horn's is measured through a system by a trained scoring representative and the scores are entered through an administrative process. On non antlered and non horned animals such as bear or lion the dried skulls are measured...

This all sounds complex and boring but with a little studie on the net one can get a grasp of these organizations and what they do for hunting... Having a harvested animal scored and entered into one of these record books is not just for the hunter to get his name in a book it is mainly for the animal/species records.....

SGS

[wireviz 8]

Most of the real quality roe heads will be older animals there for it is easier to keep your best middle age beast and still take a crop of medal heads . With reds it is differnt.

[tommydeer 2]

Most of the real quality roe heads will be older animals there for it is easier to keep your best middle age beast and still take a crop of medal heads . With reds it is differnt.

 

 

Why different with reds out of interest?

[wireviz 8]

Tommy while roe deer have very heavy heads later in life and most of the points awarded by the CIC are for weight and mass. WERE AS Red deer get more points for size and the number of points on the skull and only a very small portion are given for weight.So there for the trophy hunter wanting a roe medal will wait till he is well by his best(going back= More weight ) While a red deer trophy hunter will take his trophy when the animal is at its physical peek (at his best ). Hope that made some kind of sense.

[tommydeer 2]

Tommy while roe deer have very heavy heads later in life and most of the points awarded by the CIC are for weight and mass. WERE AS Red deer get more points for size and the number of points on the skull and only a very small portion are given for weight.So there for the trophy hunter wanting a roe medal will wait till he is well by his best(going back= More weight ) While a red deer trophy hunter will take his trophy when the animal is at its physical peek (at his best ). Hope that made some kind of sense.

 

 

From my experience of the scoring systems and that of red deer its not too different. SCI which is the American scoring system (safari club international) is basically a method made up of how many inches you can get out of a head, all tines are measured, main beam, coronets, width etc. Therefore a stag which is shot in his prime will most probably score better than if he was taken at a later age.

 

 

However the CIC method which you talk about IS based on weight of skull and antler together, yes there are many other factors but weight is a huge part of the measurement. Take for instance a stag which we had shot in NZ a few years ago. Hotspur, he was 23.4kg Antler/skull when taken which came in at a new world record 309 cic. He was never the prettiest head and certainly not the most multi pointed, but heavy and taken at 9 years old.

[wireviz 8]

[

Tommy you are now talking of genetic freaks were they are fed and kept in enclosures till they grow big. But when the cic measure a roe head here it is a bout the weight when its red its is more about the size . That deer in your picture was the reason lots of people are against trophy hunting it has nothing to do with our wild deer in Britain and can only be described as Canned.

[tommydeer 2]

[

Tommy you are now talking of genetic freaks were they are fed and kept in enclosures till they grow big. But when the cic measure a roe head here it is a bout the weight when its red its is more about the size . That deer in your picture was the reason lots of people are against trophy hunting it has nothing to do with our wild deer in Britain and can only be described as Canned.

 

 

Not at all

 

Take the animal which Allan wilson shot last year which measured 231.18, a new british record. This was shot in Yorkshire, not canned, just good genetics and good food. Yes it may have been a park descendant, but it still has to survive!Look at the Endsleigh head, this animal was found years ago and held the cic record for years, not canned. Again just good food, the right genetics and left in piece and quiete.

 

Im afraid i believe your very wrong in you assumption that the measurement systems are SO different for the two species. yes they are different but weight plays a huge part in the measuring of a red head.

 

In short SCI is a system which will probably measure more animals in there prime, due to the length of tines which is so important.

 

CIC however will probably measure more aged animals, because weight is such an important factor.....which comes with age.

[wireviz 8]

[

Tommy your miles out mate roe deer while lenght and looks count for some of the trophy 75 % are on weight and mass. Red deer while weight counts for a good few points and there is no mass measurement it only counts for less than twenty percet of the points system so there for a good middle aged red will get more points that a head going back the way. Roe deer it matters not what the head looks like to an extent but the weight must be there and that comes with age.. Measured by the CIC and dont know any other way of measuring apartfor the BASC,S OWN SYSTEM AND THAT JUST A CON.

[tommydeer 2]

[

Tommy your miles out mate roe deer while lenght and looks count for some of the trophy 75 % are on weight and mass. it only counts for less than twenty percet of the points system so there for a good middle aged red will get more points that a head going back the way. Roe deer it matters not what the head looks like to an extent but the weight must be there and that comes with age.. Measured by the CIC and dont know any other way of measuring apartfor the BASC,S OWN SYSTEM AND THAT JUST A CON.

 

Wireviz...make your mind up, firstly you type

 

"WERE AS Red deer get more points for size and the number of points on the skull and only a very small portion are given for weight"

 

And now your getting a little closer by saying

 

"Red deer while weight counts for a good few points and there is no mass measurement"

 

 

I know all the systems very well, especially for red deer. Im well aware there is no mass measurement. But like i keep trying to hint...weight is more important than you think. If your so convinced by yourself, your more than welcome to come and have a look at various measured heads.

[tommydeer 2]

Seeing as your a real expert on the matter, maybe you could explain why the older animal scores a lot higher than the younger animal. Even though it has less tines of less length.

[MOO 730]

You can tell a good stalker by the shite he has on his wall ....never a truer word said

[wireviz 8]

I am not an expert but htre is a lot to measuring a red head and weight is just a small factor were as in roe its a large factor whats not to understand.

 

ROE BUCK

 

 

Red Deer

 

 

You cac see from the charts that red get measured in a totally difernt way there is not volume which makes up the most points in a roe.

[flytie 1]

Jack, lets get away from this measuring contest and get back to the question;

 

People who pay to stalk want trophy heads, and will pay a huge amount for them. So the stalkers take out poor animals and leave the better ones. As soon as one has reached his peak and might start to go back they sell them on to stalkers.

 

Those who look after the management of deer want to preserve the good genetics and so leave the better animals. If on our own little patches we have a good beast he will be left alone, unless you are one of the shoot on sight brigade. I leave my better fallow, along with the other local stalkers, and take out the infirm, ungainly and poor beasts. I have few roe on my patch, and only take poor beasts or yearlings. Muntjac I shoot on sight, but very, very rarely come across them.

 

On Mike Robinsons new DVD "Hunt, Prepare & Cook" there is a cracking piece done by the stalker he is with on ageing red deer by their antlers and conformation. It's well worth a look.

 

 

ft