Military grade ammo?

[Deker 3,478]

 

Chap, I have already said you can believe whatever you like, they are different..even you agree with that!!! Sturm Ruger Mini-14 has been (not sure if it still is) offered in both specifications, not .223/5.56, .223 OR 5.56 two different guns!

 

They are different, it doesn't necessarily mean that the difference is going to cause any damage. They have different throats and rifling leeds - big deal. Like I've asked, where are all the blown up guns? Correct, they are different and may cause a problem, if you want to take the chance then you can

 

CIP insist .223 spec guns (in their jurisdiction countries) are higher pressure rated than SAAMI, that doesn't mean 5.56 are Ok to shoot in them!

 

Not of its self, no. However, we know the history of these things and know damn well that they are basically interchangable. There is very little difference, they both shove a .223/4 bullet down a .223/4 barrel and have pretty much the same powder capacity. Correct, they are different and may cause a problem, if you want to take the chance then you can

 

 

Where does CIP say SAAMI is WRONG, and it is fine to shoot 5.56 in a .223???

 

I've never said they have. I said they don't issue the samwe warning as SAAMI and, to be honest, I don't know if SAAMI still issue that warning. It is 31 years old, after all. INCORRECT..REVISED and re-Issued 2007

 

Where are all the blown up guns?

 

I can fire a .22lr down a .22WMR hole, not clever,

 

I'm not sure that you could given that they have different diamater brass but I'll take your word for it. No, not clever but, equally, not that dangerous, I wouldn't have thought. The lr is smaller..it fits in WMR if you want to take the chance then you can

 

even worse I can let go a .22lr down a .17HMR with a bit of effort,

 

I doubt that even more - will it even chamber? Some do, Tight, as I intimated if you want to take the chance then you can

 

just how close, or different, do you want the ammo before you decide it isn't safe?? A guy on the range next to me actually let go a .243 down his .308 barrel about 9 weeks back as well...

 

I've seen that too. I still have the brass around somewhere. Didn't cause an unsafe situation though. Are you serious, are you really suggesting that isn't an issue, you really are a gambling man

 

If you want to let go 5.56 down a .223 or even .308 down a 7.62 then you are welcome!

 

I've done both - lots of times and I'm still here to tell that tale. I have a carrier bag full of empty 7.62mm brass which I put through a .308 sporter years and years ago and that wasn't even marked 7.62 or .308, or at least I don't think it was not being able to read Arabic.

 

There is NO particular issue putting 7.62x51 down a .308 as the breach is stronger and .308 is higher pressure than 7.62...I said .308 down a 7.62, there is a significant and well known difference in these two! Putting a .223 down a 5.56 is also much less of an issue than the other way round, simple fact is how big a gambling man do you want to be???

 

 

Can you point me to all the blown up guns? No I can't, but like I say, I am not prepared to take the chance, if you want to then fine, just because any given gun has not let go yet it doesn't mean it never will, why take the chance??

 

I'll stick to what is says on the gun/ammo.

 

 

ATB!!

 

Like I've asked, where are all the blown up guns?

 

Like I said, why don't manufacturers write 5.56/.223 on guns, I'll tell you, because they are different and they are scared stiff of a massive law suit if the gun lets go!!

 

 

Do you shoot relaods through your guns?

I don't reload, but I have shot some relaods through some of my calibres

 

 

 

J... I think I have made it clear that you can do, or believe what you want, I prefer not to take the chance, and with all due respect, commercially/economically driven or not, I will take more notice of SAAMI and CIP than I will of you!!!

 

ATB!!

[Deker 3,478]

Gentlemen, there is a point here which I think a lot of people have missed. There is a difference between "chance" and "risk".

 

Jon.L's arguments are, it seems to me, about chance. It may well be the case that the chance of a mishap as a result of using Mil.Spec ammo in a civilian weapon is very low. If you use 5.56mm in a gun proofed for .223 the chance of anything going amiss is very small.

 

On the other hand, the arguments from Deker, Mr Logic, and myself are based on risk. If that very unlikely chance were to happen, you risk getting your head blown off. I won't call the choice a no brainer cos people are fed up with my lousy puns anyway!

 

Ric

 

The main point is that people are saying that this is a horrendously dangerous practice but aren't offering any actual evidence as to why. The main thrust seems to be that it's because 5.56 is a far higher pressure round than .223 but when you actually compare specs from the same source and which are derived from the same testing method you see that they are actually the same.

 

So what is it that makes firing 5.56 in a .223 rifle dangerous? Yes, there are slight differnces in the chamber specs but they are really slight. Rifles don't run so close to the point of blowing up that a slight difference in the throat or rifling leede is going to spontaneously dismantle them. Okay, military brass is slightly thicker at the base but so what?

 

I'm just not seeing the danger here and the distinct lack of blown up guns tends to suggest that this just doesn't happen. It is, after all, a very common practice and is the whole reason why .223 rifles are so popular - you can shoot cheap military ammo in them. Same with .308/7.62. I have an SSG with .308 stamped on it and through which the previous owner shot nothing but military 7.62.

 

J.

 

 

That will hopefully not present an issue as the 7.62 is lower pressure than .308, even though the cases are different!!.

[HUnter_zero 58]

 

Oh dear...John, for someone who has his head burried in a book (Computer Programme) most of his life I would have though you could come up with something better than that!!

 

So it's Ok to use .308 in a 7.62 on that basis is it???

 

 

Why-oh-why-oh-why do you have to go on the defensive 100% of the time, did the big boys kick eight shades of $h!te out of you in school or what?

 

I have shot .308 in a 7.62mm Mil rifle with no issues at all. My mate shoots 100's of Mil ammo in his Howa .308 with no issues at all.

Both rounds are exactly the same from what I can see, just stated in Imperial and metric terminology. I am hazarding a wild guess that because NATO covers most of Europe, and most of Europe uses metric measurements, that why it's termed as 7.62mm (just a wild guess mind).

 

 

John

Edited May 4, 2010 by HUnter_zero

[riohog 5,701]

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

[HUnter_zero 58]

http://www.303british.com/id36.html

 

 

That's a really good informative link! Thanks.

 

If I'm reading and understanding it correctly, that chap is saying that it's safe to use Mil & Civilian ammo in a civilian rifle but not safe to use civilian ammo in a military rifle because the chambers are longer and civilian brass may not expand to fill the Mil spec chamber, thus the brass will fail or may fail.

As said already I have done both with no ill effect but what they guy is saying makes sense. Very interesting indeed, much food for thought.

 

John

[coldweld 65]

If your dealer wants to break the law and you want to put .308 down a 7.62 do I care! Fortunately I had the brains to request .308/7.62x51, that's the ONLY legal way you can buy both! Exactly the same applies with .223/5.56.

 

You know fully well if it doesn't say you can do it on your FAC then you can't.......

 

We also both know it happens sometimes, and hopefully the police will turn a blind eye if they ever check, but that doesn't make it legal!

 

 

The police do not turn a blind eye as i pointed that out to them at the time of issue. As brains or legal issues you are not a good role model.

[RicW 67]

And that raises another point that we all ignore. We keep on about "milspec" ammo or whatever as though the military specification were set in stone.

 

The original 5.56 x 45 US round, as adopted by the US forces during the Vietnam war, fired a 52gr FMJ bullet. During the trials in the late 70s for a new standard NATO round, the British Army's 4.85mm/.19" round, using the 5.56 case necked down, was shooting the shit out of the 5.56. Far be it from me to suggest that vested interests came in to play, but FNAG came up with a new 62gr bullet, with a higher charge and, more to the point a higher BC, which almost matched the performance of the 4.85. The decision to stay with the 5.56 was reached on the grounds that the performance difference was too small to warrant the change. Well Ho Hum. Special relationship again. Recent experience in Afghanistan has convinced the US forces that the 62gr bullet is not up to the demands of long range rifle warfare, so they now use a 72gr spirepoint boattail bullet with a still bigger charge behind it. That is still not up to the mark, so they are trying an 85gr bullet - in a 5.56mm!

 

Coming down from my rant, if you buy milspec 5.56 best be sure it's not more than 62gr. Meantime the British Army are quietly re-equipping with 7.62 x 51.

 

Ric

[Deker 3,478]

 

Deker wrote

 

If your dealer wants to break the law and you want to put .308 down a 7.62 do I care! Fortunately I had the brains to request .308/7.62x51, that's the ONLY legal way you can buy both! Exactly the same applies with .223/5.56.

 

You know fully well if it doesn't say you can do it on your FAC then you can't.......

 

We also both know it happens sometimes, and hopefully the police will turn a blind eye if they ever check, but that doesn't make it legal!

 

The police do not turn a blind eye as i pointed that out to them at the time of issue. As brains or legal issues you are not a good role model.

 

It is illegal to buy ammo not listed on your FAC! Just which part of that do you find a problem to understand, wether or not your dealer of region want to ignore the fact it is Illegal is down to them, it doesn't make it legal!!

 

How about .300 or .303, thats nearly the same as well, try that!!

 

.308 and 7.62x51 factory ammo are most certainly NOT the same, so can you get 7.62x39 on this FAC as well seeing as the head is the same and the calibre is the same and it says 7.62 on the ammo which is the same as .308?? After all they are all .308, and as it isn't written on your FAC I'm sure what they actually meant was 7.62x39...

 

Sorry chap....As brains or legal issues you are not a good role model.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Deker

[Deker 3,478]

 

Oh dear...John, for someone who has his head burried in a book (Computer Programme) most of his life I would have though you could come up with something better than that!!

 

So it's Ok to use .308 in a 7.62 on that basis is it???

 

 

Why-oh-why-oh-why do you have to go on the defensive 100% of the time, did the big boys kick eight shades of $h!te out of you in school or what?

 

I have shot .308 in a 7.62mm Mil rifle with no issues at all. YOU are playing the odds! My mate shoots 100's of Mil ammo in his Howa .308 with no issues at all. that shouldn't cause a problem as the .308 should deal with 7.62

 

Both rounds are exactly the same from what I can see, You read the wrong book just stated in Imperial and metric terminology. I am hazarding a wild guess that because NATO covers most of Europe, and most of Europe uses metric measurements, that why it's termed as 7.62mm (just a wild guess mind). Guessing to much gets you dead in firearms!

 

 

John

 

Well, you walked right into that one didn't you...keep up the good work feeding .308 into your 7.62 and we may soon be able to live without your ignorant abusive posts!

 

Now you know why I said .308 in a 7.62, good luck, keep it up, and whilst you are at it do the lottery as well!

[coldweld 65]

I like reading Decker's posts as knows all about all the firearms and laws on the planet ! or thinks he do's.

 

 

 

Please enlighten me as to why one of the worlds leaders of military sniper rifles has its .308/7.62 proofed as 7.67 x 51 but in the user manual they are called .308 ?

 

Perhaps it was a printing error that got missed ? or pehaps you are wrong again. TRY contacting sporting services

or Accuracy international if you don't beleve me.

 

 

I'm not in to operator error as due to checking my firearms before use i have Never barrel burst ! have you ?

Mind you i have never sold an off ticket mod and advetised it for use on a FAC rated firearm either but thats not illegal or morally wrong is it ?

Edited May 5, 2010 by coldweld

[jamie g 17]

i think for what cheap factory ammo cost ! why take the risk of using the army ammo just to save a couple of pound.

 

its silly and more then likely shit accuracy anyway

[Deker 3,478]

I like reading Decker's posts as knows all about all the firearms and laws on the planet ! or thinks he do's.

 

 

 

Please enlighten me as to why one of the worlds leaders of military sniper rifles has its .308/7.62 proofed as 7.67 x 51 but in the user manual they are called .308 ?

 

Perhaps it was a printing error that got missed ? or pehaps you are wrong again. TRY contacting sporting services

or Accuracy international if you don't beleve me.

 

 

I'm not in to operator error as due to checking my firearms before use i have Never barrel burst ! have you ?

Mind you i have never sold an off ticket mod and advetised it for use on a FAC rated firearm either but thats not illegal or morally wrong is it ?

 

Clutching at straws, ignoring the facts, ignoring the post and throwing in red herrings again hey, so whats new?

 

If you have something then say then say it clear and loud and SHOW the evidence!

 

Which part of you can only legally buy what it says on your FAC do you have a problem understanding?

 

Neither I nor the law gives a toss who writes what, and calls it whatever they want, that has no bearing on what is printed on your FAC!

 

Have a nice day!

[coldweld 65]

Ok Decker first of all explain why if the .308 and 7.62 is not the samething YOU can buy ammo for a rifle you have not got ?

 

Fact ! Britain comes under CIP ruleing that is a firearms SAFTEY organisation .

 

FACT :- SAAMI who you love to quote is an american MANUFACTURES organisation WITH no force of law .And say it is ok to use .308 in 7.62 x 51 rifles

 

FACT :- look up ACCURACY INTERNATIONAL user manual [ easyest to find is for the AE] readily avalable on the net

 

 

FACT Piezo readings Published by SAAMI and CIP for .308 SAAMI 62000 psi CIP 60000 psi as the diference qouted between 7.62x51 and .308 is 5-10 % pressure and the quoted reading between the eurpean proof houses and american manufactures is larger than this .

 

 

I await more Bull !

 

Over to you .

[JonathanL 4]

 

Which part of you can only legally buy what it says on your FAC do you have a problem understanding?

 

 

 

I think that this whole issue could turn into a lawers breakfast in a big hurry if it ever came to court and the defandant decided to put up a big fight. The first big, big, issue you will face is one of interpretation. I mean, your FAC tells you what ammo you can acquire by quantity and calibre. However, "calibre" is not defined in the Act, as far as I'm aware. What does it refer to in a legal sense? Is it ammunition which has bullet of a certain diameter; or designed to be used in a firearm with a certain bore diameter - and if so is that land or groove diameter?

 

Also, what about stuff where the ammo designation has got sod all to do with any measurement? My .44 Magnum rifle fires. 429" bullets and a .303 uses .311". 7.62x39mm ammo uses about .310" - .311", .223 Rem is usually .224" as is .222!. The European designation for .30-06 is something like 7.7 x 62, or similar, but it's the same thing. The physical external dimensions of .45 Super are identical to .45 ACP are those of .22 Hornet and .22 WCF - are they the same calibre in law?

 

So, what is "calibre"? Is it an actual physical measurement of something, a particular chambering, or just a term of art. I'd strongly drift towards the latter (and I think a court would agree) but if I'm wrong then lots and lots of people are in possession of illegal ammo.

 

Look at the other problem. What happens if I'm reloading and trim a case down to below the accepted tolerance for .308 Win? That must surely mean that I'm in illegal possession?

 

Until you can actually define what the legal meaning of this word - "calibre" - is then no prosecution could ever succeed.

 

I think the bottom line would be that the court would take the pragmatic view of things. I think they'd look at whether the ammo you possessed was intended to be used in the gun you bought it for, was capable of being so used, and apply that to what your cert authorised you to acquire.

 

J.

Edited May 5, 2010 by JonathanL

[Deker 3,478]

Ok Decker first of all explain why if the .308 and 7.62 is not the samething YOU can buy ammo for a rifle you have not got ?

 

Because I asked for both and have both listed on my FAC, (just like I have a lot of calibres listed on my FAC, I can go and buy them all legally) because it says so on my FAC, not that I ever intend to use both, but I can legally buy both, and ...because the maths says you can put a 7.62 down a .308, not that I have any intention of doing so!

 

Fact ! Britain comes under CIP ruleing that is a firearms SAFTEY organisation .

 

FACT :- SAAMI who you love to quote is an american MANUFACTURES organisation WITH no force of law .And say it is ok to use .308 in 7.62 x 51 rifles...I missed that bit, perhaps you can show me where SAAMI says its ok to use a .308 in a 7.62x51, from what I see they make it clear they are different and both have different cartridge dimensions as well!

 

SAAMI... are you suggesting you know more than them, I am very well aware SAAMI has potential commercial interests, as I have said earlier in this thread, you need to keep up with a lot it seems, the London and Birmingham Proof houses are commercial organisations as well...and your point is???

 

FACT :- look up ACCURACY INTERNATIONAL user manual [ easyest to find is for the AE] readily avalable on the net

 

 

FACT Piezo readings Published by SAAMI and CIP for .308 SAAMI 62000 psi CIP 60000 psi as the diference qouted between 7.62x51 and .308 is 5-10 % pressure and the quoted reading between the eurpean proof houses and american manufactures is larger than this .

 

What is all this about, what am I meant to look up, both CIP and SAAMI accept the .308/7.62 AND 5.56/.223 are different!

 

I await more Bull ! You are the one full of it, I notice you haven't answered any of my last post, it's convenient ignoring things after you have slagged someone off and don't have a reply when you have been put in your place isn't it

 

Over to you .

 

What has this got to do with you buying the wrong ammo which is not listed on your FAC!

 

I'm bored with you.....

 

Go and waste someone else's time..but feel free to answer this and my previous post first