a life is a life all should be treated with the same respect

[pigeon640 0]

if my memory serves me right Deker shot a fawn not so long ago and it caused uproar on here!!! Why?

 

Same reason as why one shooting site split into two not so long ago. People like to judge others according to their own standards and, usually, without knowing the facts.

 

Judge not least someone shell your glasshouse with stones... Or something along those lines...

 

yes john but that all started because of someone boasting in post of shooting a fox at 180 yards when it was running at full tilt not clever and it might be done but shouldn't be posted for all to see not even by accredited witnesses !!!!

 

forgive me if i have the wrong story nad or site but it fits for me

 

colin

[JohnGalway 1,043]

Not sure if it's the same one or not Colin. The one I was talking about started (if I remember right) with a deer being shot at 400 and something odd yards. Then another post had the range removed by a mod when he said he had shot a fox at 350 yards. There was two problems as I saw it, the first was "ethics" were not supposed to be discussed on the site. It has caused problems in the past I think and was agreed not to be part of discussions. The second was that a lot of people were judging the shooting abilities of people they'd never met, never mind shot with. I reckon that aspect caused the most grief. I know I can't yet shoot a fox at 350 yards, but, I know a number of people who can do so very capably.

 

I always say, shoot within your own limits. I know roughly what mine are, and I expect most other people know theirs too. There are a lot of folks who spend time practicing with carefully worked up loads being shot out of finely tweaked rifles, using drop charts, wind meters and so on. Not to be controversial, but I think a few of the "zero once a year" brigade got their knickers in a twist over it

 

Off out now to feed my lamb

Edited April 8, 2010 by JohnGalway

[pigeon640 0]

Not sure if it's the same one or not Colin. The one I was talking about started (if I remember right) with a deer being shot at 400 and something odd yards. Then another post had the range removed by a mod when he said he had shot a fox at 350 yards. There was two problems as I saw it, the first was "ethics" were not supposed to be discussed on the site. It has caused problems in the past I think and was agreed not to be part of discussions. The second was that a lot of people were judging the shooting abilities of people they'd never met, never mind shot with. I reckon that aspect caused the most grief. I know I can't yet shoot a fox at 350 yards, but, I know a number of people who can do so very capably.

 

I always say, shoot within your own limits. I know roughly what mine are, and I expect most other people know theirs too. There are a lot of folks who spend time practicing with carefully worked up loads being shot out of finely tweaked rifles, using drop charts, wind meters and so on. Not to be controversial, but I think a few of the "zero once a year" brigade got their knickers in a twist over it

 

ok john i hear where your coming from

i was thinking of some other site and probably shouldnt have posted anyways

 

colin

[JohnGalway 1,043]

ok john i hear where your coming from

i was thinking of some other site and probably shouldnt have posted anyways

 

colin

 

Post away

[Deker 3,478]

...and to move things to another level altogether, who hasn't swatted a fly or used fly spray, who hasn't put down ant powder, etc, etc...even the ANTIS do.....

 

........and the difference is????????

[langouroux 14]

...and to move things to another level altogether, who hasn't swatted a fly or used fly spray, who hasn't put down ant powder, etc, etc...even the ANTIS do.....

 

........and the difference is????????

 

 

a very good point deker!

 

although ants aren't that tasty from what i remember as a kid!

[skycat 6,173]

This will probably really upset some people but I fed a litter of cubs for a month or so a couple of years back: this was not on farm/shoot land but locally near some fishing lakes and nature reserves: my dogs found and killed a vixen in a terrible state: skin and bone,but heavy in milk and so weak she could barely walk: her gums and tongue were completely white: lack of blood? Anaemia? Internal injuries?

 

Anyway, I knew where the cubs were and for a month left them meat and bones outside the earth: which vanished within hours of me putting it there. Now there's quite a few foxes around the area and there's no management obviously, but from time to time my dogs do come across and kill the odd fox accidently when out on exercise: no problem there, but I just didn't like to think of the cubs starving when I knew that they'd be active and eating meat. Maybe I wouldn't have wanted to save them if I'd known that they were still in the nest, just born or whatever: tiny day old lives slip away much more easily than in a cub that is alert and eating solids: I've bred too many pups to know that they don't just lie down and die, even the weak ones or dodgy ones fight like hell to stay alive.

 

Call me soft if you like, but I felt bad at having killed the vixen, even though she was on her last legs and wouldn't have survived and to have left those cubs to starve just didn't sit right. And yes, I've had call outs on vixens and cubs and also felt bad, but done it anyway as humanely as possible when its been needed. A slow death by starvation is worse IMO.

 

OK so its just an animal and plenty of young predators starve to death if they can't learn to hunt properly. Besides, it could just have been one of those cubs which gave my dogs the slip a while back! Beautiful, huge dog fox: dark red with a big white bib: terrier put him out of a bramble where he was sat keeping dry in a heavy shower: he ran one way, across the track and into some more brambles with terriers and lurchers in hot pursuit, then he ran round a bit of a mound, (thick scrub and little brambles enough to block the dogs' sight of him, came back across the track, back into the bramble, came out, had a listen, then cantered slowly past me, not ten feet in front of me, headed off to the lakes, not fussed at all. As he left the bramble for the second time a rabbit, which he'd probably been watching initially hopped casually into the bramble!

 

I could see all this as I was stood up high on a sand bank, it was p*ssing with rain and blowing a gale, which is why he never saw or scented me, and probably why the dogs lost him so quick. Nice one Charlie: he'd probably pulled this stunt many times before.

 

If the dogs had fallen on a cub and killed it I'd have been less than happy: though the manner of any animal's death is probably of no consequence to the animal in question if there's a minimum of suffering. Sod it, I'm rambling again LOL

[waidmann 105]

This will probably really upset some people but I fed a litter of cubs for a month or so a couple of years back: this was not on farm/shoot land but locally near some fishing lakes and nature reserves: my dogs found and killed a vixen in a terrible state: skin and bone,but heavy in milk and so weak she could barely walk: her gums and tongue were completely white: lack of blood? Anaemia? Internal injuries?

 

Anyway, I knew where the cubs were and for a month left them meat and bones outside the earth: which vanished within hours of me putting it there. Now there's quite a few foxes around the area and there's no management obviously, but from time to time my dogs do come across and kill the odd fox accidently when out on exercise: no problem there, but I just didn't like to think of the cubs starving when I knew that they'd be active and eating meat. Maybe I wouldn't have wanted to save them if I'd known that they were still in the nest, just born or whatever: tiny day old lives slip away much more easily than in a cub that is alert and eating solids: I've bred too many pups to know that they don't just lie down and die, even the weak ones or dodgy ones fight like hell to stay alive.

 

Call me soft if you like, but I felt bad at having killed the vixen, even though she was on her last legs and wouldn't have survived and to have left those cubs to starve just didn't sit right. And yes, I've had call outs on vixens and cubs and also felt bad, but done it anyway as humanely as possible when its been needed. A slow death by starvation is worse IMO.

 

OK so its just an animal and plenty of young predators starve to death if they can't learn to hunt properly. Besides, it could just have been one of those cubs which gave my dogs the slip a while back! Beautiful, huge dog fox: dark red with a big white bib: terrier put him out of a bramble where he was sat keeping dry in a heavy shower: he ran one way, across the track and into some more brambles with terriers and lurchers in hot pursuit, then he ran round a bit of a mound, (thick scrub and little brambles enough to block the dogs' sight of him, came back across the track, back into the bramble, came out, had a listen, then cantered slowly past me, not ten feet in front of me, headed off to the lakes, not fussed at all. As he left the bramble for the second time a rabbit, which he'd probably been watching initially hopped casually into the bramble!

 

I could see all this as I was stood up high on a sand bank, it was p*ssing with rain and blowing a gale, which is why he never saw or scented me, and probably why the dogs lost him so quick. Nice one Charlie: he'd probably pulled this stunt many times before.

 

If the dogs had fallen on a cub and killed it I'd have been less than happy: though the manner of any animal's death is probably of no consequence to the animal in question if there's a minimum of suffering. Sod it, I'm rambling again LOL

 

 

i think that upsetting people will not be a problem there bud

would most do any differently with an orphaned owl? deer?

if there is no cause to kill the animals then they should be cared for to ensure suffering is minimized at least(the rspca would have taken them and reared close to man and released them into a foreign enviroment to fend for themselves and probably die).

in germany the hunter has a "right" to hunt and THE DUTY of care for the enviroment and all it contains.it is not uncommon to see hunters days after a road accident looking for deer,fox,pigs young/wounded to bring an end to the suffering(the longest i have spent is two weeks looking for a sick doe and fawn,when i did find them she was halfway ok and imho fit to rear the fawn,she was left to it and shot in december along with the weak follower).

 

i will look actively for earths with cubs and remove them from the land where they WILL cause problems(chicken farm) along with the dog and vixen if possible,not something i like doing but needs be.

 

i see no difference between rabbit,fox and deer as far as ethics go,they all deserve as quick an end as possible if they need to be managed at all.

waidmann

[langouroux 14]

well done skycat good on ya, as you say no need for them to be dispatched so why put yourself through it. although i am sure that there is plenty of people out there that wouldn't have gone to hassle to keep them alive like you did sop fair play.

[jamie g 17]

This will probably really upset some people but I fed a litter of cubs for a month or so a couple of years back: this was not on farm/shoot land but locally near some fishing lakes and nature reserves: my dogs found and killed a vixen in a terrible state: skin and bone,but heavy in milk and so weak she could barely walk: her gums and tongue were completely white: lack of blood? Anaemia? Internal injuries?

 

Anyway, I knew where the cubs were and for a month left them meat and bones outside the earth: which vanished within hours of me putting it there. Now there's quite a few foxes around the area and there's no management obviously, but from time to time my dogs do come across and kill the odd fox accidently when out on exercise: no problem there, but I just didn't like to think of the cubs starving when I knew that they'd be active and eating meat. Maybe I wouldn't have wanted to save them if I'd known that they were still in the nest, just born or whatever: tiny day old lives slip away much more easily than in a cub that is alert and eating solids: I've bred too many pups to know that they don't just lie down and die, even the weak ones or dodgy ones fight like hell to stay alive.

 

Call me soft if you like, but I felt bad at having killed the vixen, even though she was on her last legs and wouldn't have survived and to have left those cubs to starve just didn't sit right. And yes, I've had call outs on vixens and cubs and also felt bad, but done it anyway as humanely as possible when its been needed. A slow death by starvation is worse IMO.

 

OK so its just an animal and plenty of young predators starve to death if they can't learn to hunt properly. Besides, it could just have been one of those cubs which gave my dogs the slip a while back! Beautiful, huge dog fox: dark red with a big white bib: terrier put him out of a bramble where he was sat keeping dry in a heavy shower: he ran one way, across the track and into some more brambles with terriers and lurchers in hot pursuit, then he ran round a bit of a mound, (thick scrub and little brambles enough to block the dogs' sight of him, came back across the track, back into the bramble, came out, had a listen, then cantered slowly past me, not ten feet in front of me, headed off to the lakes, not fussed at all. As he left the bramble for the second time a rabbit, which he'd probably been watching initially hopped casually into the bramble!

 

I could see all this as I was stood up high on a sand bank, it was p*ssing with rain and blowing a gale, which is why he never saw or scented me, and probably why the dogs lost him so quick. Nice one Charlie: he'd probably pulled this stunt many times before.

 

If the dogs had fallen on a cub and killed it I'd have been less than happy: though the manner of any animal's death is probably of no consequence to the animal in question if there's a minimum of suffering. Sod it, I'm rambling again LOL

 

a friend of mine done this. he shot a vixen that had cubs. and felt bad so left rabbits outside the den for them.

 

then when they where older and come out more he then took care of them

[Fishslayer 10]

Swat a fly.

Pull a weed.

Take an antibiotic.

 

Life is life is life.

 

Does being warm and fuzzy denote some special status?

[dpb82uk 138]

i see most of what i hunt as fersh food yum

[HUnter_zero 58]

An interesting thread.

 

I guess 'killing' is a very personal thing and many factors influence the way in which a person justifies to their own mind why they do it.

I'm not sure there is a 'sportsman' alive that hasn't at some point just stopped and taken a long gaze at his fresh kill and secretly asked 'why did I do that'.

I spent more time in the woods and fields as a kid than I did in school, always had an airgun with me and was always on some adventure somewhere. I can not say that I thought about 'killing' in the same way I do now, back then I guess shooting rabbits, or pigeons was just part of the adventure I was having on that particular day. It's funny how back then I seemed to endlessly cross fields and woods with no worry about firearm laws or poaching laws. I can honestly say I shot game in places I can not believe, let alone anyone else. One particular instance was along a railway track, there was masses of bunnies but the down side was an MOD facility right next to the track and as it happens the bunnies. A story for another day, I think. As I matured in to shotguns and then in to firearms my view point changed some how, it was more calculated and sporting shooting or killing I was looking for. That bolting rabbit, high pheasant or super quick woodcock. Some of the best shooting I have ever done was around a small flight pond at the base of an aging quarry. Waiting for the ducks to come in was excellerating, yet differed from my childhood hunting. As a kid, I took pride in 'cooking' the ill gotten gains, now I was shooting duck only to give the ducks away because I don't like wild duck. Now I'm paid to kill things, I work as a full time pest controller and killing rats, mice, moles, ants, cockroaches, bed bugs, flies and all manner of things are viewed as hassle, I guess. Now when I'm faced with a plague of rodents, it's not fun, it's business.

Time and money are now involved. That's not to say I would kill the rats in anything but a legal way, so it has to be humane but the sporting and eating aspect is far removed. The job has to be done cold and calculated, clients haven't got time to understand the job, they want rid of their unwelcome guests as quickly as possible and in some cases their business depends upon this.

I spent most of yesterday's afternoon setting mole traps across a three hundred acres estate, I can not wait to check the traps, not because of my sporting instincts or for food but for a job well done and a happy client. My sporting shooting has lapsed somewhat, these days I am just as happy to put my feet up in a pigeon hind, take in the fresh air and relax as I am shooting a bag of one hundred pigeons. A busman's holiday. I love to go out and have a good shoot, like the rest of us but am honestly happy to sit in a hedge and relax.

Looking back, I can not say that my basic feelings have changed over 'killing' just my motivations and to some degree the pleasure I get out of the 'hunt'.

As a kid, wounding a rabbit or as an adult being paid to rid the world of rats, having to deal with a wounded animal because of my actions has always been repulsive but unfortunately not everything goes to plan all of the time, so a situation which sooner or later will occur. I can say that I have killed the smallest mite right up to the mighty red stag, I can not say that I have the same respect for all but I can say that I have tried my best to kill both and everything in-between with the same degree of humanity and swiftness.

 

John

[langouroux 14]

i think hunter zero has summed it up!

[danebrewer10 6]

aye that he has!, It's a shame that not all have the same ideals and opinions as he!,

I phoned the landowner on one of my permissions to report the nights success of one fox, I mentioned that regrettably if was a vixen who had obviously been suckling cubs, he didn't see it that way, I guess any good fox to him would be a dead fox, dependent young or no...., i found it startling coming from a farmer, even one who farms sheep who are, as I see it guardians of the countryside, well i might have risen in his good books, especially as I haven't had the permission for long at all....

 

DB