Is a Fell terrier and a Patterdale terrier the same thing?

[Pignut 4]

Poor you! She looked lovely and so happy. A great dog.

[mouse 282]

my 2 are scruffy black patterdale/fell terriers but who gives a shite.they do the job and they are my kids buddies.

[nelson 0]

Poor you! She looked lovely and so happy. A great dog.

 

Poor me !,its all part of animal husbandry,they are born,do their job and die.Simple as that.By the way the dog is the white one at the back. but oh my God how i have suffered in this life

[Pignut 4]

From your avatar, I can see you are still suffering greatly. Possibly seeing double!

[Guest baldie]

Brilliant photo - I want her - she looks beautiful!

 

Anyway, here is a photo from the book which shows some Fells from Ullswater. Bean, IMO, looks like the one in the middle, so I think she is a throw-back to previous ancestry.

 

The main reason I just want to clarify what my dog is (and what "breed" to call her) is that everyone always asks when they meet her and I want to get it right, and also have some proof to back-up my claims while so-called knowledgeable folk fall about on the floor laughing when I say she is a Patterdale or a Fell, as she really does not resemble today's dogs!

 

I also think she has a look of Wendy Pinckney's dogs too.

 

Thanks

 

Since when has wendy been breeding terriers that look like that?

[PBurns 9]

Plummer's book reads like the "begats" section of the bible and the tale he presents is not very clear, despite the fact that it is not very complicated. As a general rule, I like Plummer, but the story he tells is far too convulated to make much sense out of. Here's the simpler (and I hope straighter) version:

 

1. The Patterdale and the Matterdale hunts were combined in 1873 to form the Ullswater Foxhounds. See >> http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence/centralfell.htm

 

2. Joe Bowman was master of the Ullswater beginning in 1879 and continuing on until 1924 (he died in 1940).

 

3. Joe Bowman was the first person to cross up a blue-black border terrier with a fell terrier to create what was called, at the time, a Patterdale Terrier. See the reference to Patterdale Terrier and "J. Boroman (a typo) in the back of Jocelyn Lucas' book in the tables of 100 hunts and the terriers they prefer. Lucas published his book in 1930, and the information in it was collected between 1925 and 1929. The Patterdale Terrier was clearly a clear type (if not widely used) by the 1920s.

 

4. Border Terriers, Welsh Terriers, Lakelands, etc. were all the same dog in 1860 and were speciated out into "breeds" by the 1920s. All of the dark-colored working terriers are very closely related, and what we call a "Fell Terrier" today looks exactly like a border terrier from about 1910.

 

5. Most of the major stratifications for terrier breeds occured after the first dog Kennel Club dog show (1873) and in the next 30 years when terriers were a serious fashion craze (Crufts used to be called the Allied Terrier Show, and the first breed-specific publication in the dog world was called "The Fox Terrier Chronicle" ). What was known as the "Black and Tan" terrier, for example, was renamed the Welsh Terrier in 1887 -- after a brief period of Kennel Club skirmishes when a couple of English breeders tried to claim the dog as their own under the monicker "Old English Black and Tan."

 

6. The creation of the Patterdale Terrier is nothing more than a continuation of the same process that created the Border Terrier, Welsh Terrier and Lakeland Terrier -- a process of narrowing gene pools towards a particular "look." The only real difference is that the Patterdale has been lucky enough to stay out of the Kennel Club, and so the look has been allowed to drift a bit and (in theory) remain subordinate to working abilities. That is the theory. In practice, it does not take too many people crossing in bull terrier for a dog to get both too big and too hard, and that has clearly been done in some lines.

 

7. Today most people call any solid black terrier or black terrier with a white patch on its chest a Patterdale Terrier, and any brown, red or black-and-tan terrier a Fell Terrier or a "working Lakeland". As noted, a Patterdale Terrier tends to have a short wirey coat -- what Plummer called a "slape coat" -- very much like a good Border Terrier coat, while the blacks dogs sometimes called "black Fells" have woolier and softer coats more like a black Welsh Terrier.

 

8. Anyone wanting to know where a Patterdale got its head from, just needs to look at a good Border Terrier. Cyril Breay said he did not use Bull Terrier in the dogs, and he was not lying -- he was an old border terrier breeder himself, same as Joe Bowman.

 

 

Patrick

Edited October 24, 2006 by PBurns

[Pignut 4]

Patrick,

 

Thank you for your excellent precis of Mr Plummer's book. I am very grateful to you.

 

Appreciated.

 

Since when has wendy been breeding terriers that look like that?

 

I found this in a book - and I reckon the second one from the left is not dissimilar to mine and also the one top left who is looking away.

 

So, yes, I thought my pup had a look of a Pinckney dog

Edited October 24, 2006 by Pignut

[Kane 2]

No there not the same thing

[pockets 0]

Agree with Baldie not Pinkney Breeding

[nelson 0]

Fox bolted from a pipe a good few years ago by Bess

 

 

That black and tan bitch used to belong a friend of mine,very good bitch.Went back to Wendy due to ill health.Never carried her tail high and when entered into a show,which she hated was in the lakie class.

[hafod 1]

pinkney breeding

[Guest baldie]

I know, or knew, all the dogs in that picture, pignut, but for the life of me, cannot remember, where that black/tan dog came from, wendy could have bred it, but i dont think she did, its nothing like her stamp of terrier.She isnt called pinkney any longer.

Sorry, the rest of the post has just sunk in Nelson, can you tell us how the dogs bred, and by whom?I,m sure i can remember it at the pennine kennels.

[Pignut 4]

Nelson, that nearer dog could be mine. Total replica.

 

What breeding?

 

Thanks

[Guest baldie]

Something in the back of my mind says, the b+t in the picture, is the sister of the nearest lakie, which was called "fell" who was sold to sean frain, cos it didnt make the grade Maybe thats a little unfair on the dog, it was alright, an average terrier that would work, but nothing special, and certainly not a "hard" dog.It was no use to the hunt, in the terrain we were hunting, so it went, but a very sweet natured animal.

[Pignut 4]

I have Sean Frain's book - which terrier was it? Can you mind?

 

My terrier would make the grade - we have just had words about a rabbit and she does not feel like giving it up for anyone!

 

Also buggered off with selective deafness yesterday never to be seen again, if she had had her way - thank the gods for an overactive 15 year old who rugby tackled her to get her back.

 

"God loves a terrier" to quote the film, Best in Show (because no other bugger would!).

 

Pignut