littlefish 587 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Last week when my dogs went for yearly vacinations the young vet really went on and on admiring the fit trim condition of my 10 year old dog. When he asked what he was fed on, I told him 'raw' and then he started on about the risks - I pointed to the fit trim 10 year old dog and said 'that'll do for me'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
the night hunter 130 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 feed my dogs on 100% chicken carcass never had a problem never will coz thery designed to eat raw meat. ran out of food other day so bought some compleat dry food for 1 night what a mess in the morning would have been better off giving the dogs ramadam for the night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! feed em what they are built to eat, MEAT never seen a dingo with his george forman grill cooking up roo steaks incase he gets the squits.1 thing i will add though you must make sure you store well when defrosting as chicken will go bad quickly then you must throw away! atb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pointer 543 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 there may be risks but i see a fresh chicken carcase that im going to feed my dogs the same way i see a whole chicken that im going to cook for myself. this is a hunting forum and hunting people would have more chance picking up some nasty virus from a manky farm than from giving dogs fresh raw food.take ratting for example,they carry all sorts of disease but ive yet to die from them and my dogs are taken ratting regularly. the food i give my dogs is very fresh and if i cooked the chicken carcase up and ate the considerable amount of meat on it id be fine.its just a fecking chicken 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Working dogs have a high risk of deveoping gastric leasions and this will increase gut permability and alow cross over of bacteria and there resultant poisions to the blood stream, not good on the long term. Dogs can deal with the bacteria but not the poisons and continuos administrations is probabily not a good idea. I feed a lot of rabbit that is prepared and frozen then fed defrosted after a fortnight and this is unlikely to carry a heavey bacterial load whereas pet mince is very likely to do so. I do feed butchers waste but only once a week or so to minimise risk. If I had younge children/babies in the house i'd not use it because althuogh the risks maybe low it's just not worth it, family/people must come first! Skelly a lot of words but not saying much that not the usual barfist propaganda, I'll post a study that compares BARF against commercial after this and bare in mind the British, American, Canadian etc veterinary Associations must all know less than you lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 (edited) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/ Edited March 26, 2010 by sandymere Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,809 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Journal List > Can Vet J > v.43(6); Jun 2002 Formats:Abstract | Full Text | PDF (46K) Can Vet J. 2002 June; 43(6): 441–442. PMCID: PMC339295 Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets Daniel J. Joffe and Daniel P. Schlesinger Landing Animal Clinic, C155–1600, 90th Avenue SW, Calgary, Alberta T2V 5A8. This article has been cited by other articles in PMC. Abstract This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from % of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination. Other Sections▼ Abstract Introduction Materials and methods Results Discussion ReferencesIntroduction A current trend among dog owners is the feeding of “natural†diets. Proponents argue that the processing methods used to produce commercial pet foods destroy essential nutrients and enzymes. They believe, therefore, that commercial pet foods do not meet the nutritional needs of dogs and may be a source of chronic health problems. One natural diet, proposed by Billinghurst (1), is commonly referred to as the BARF (bones and raw food) diet. It consists of pieces of whole raw chicken together with vegetables. Claims made for this diet by its champions include improved immune function and overall health, increased energy, improved coat and skin condition, and decreased body odor for the dogs that are on it (1). No publications, other than anecdotal testimonials, support or refute these claims. In one small-scale study, the nutritional adequacy of several “natural†diets was examined: significant nutritional imbalances existed (2).Feeding raw chicken to dogs is a concern, given the many bacterial pathogens (especially Salmonella spp.) that are commonly present in raw poultry (3). Billinghurst (1) suggested that these pathogens are rendered harmless by the uniquely adapted canine intestinal tract. No reports documenting clinical salmonellosis in dogs fed a BARF diet have been published, though Salmonella spp. are well-described pathogens in dogs (4,5).Since dogs are a potential source for several zoonotic pathogens, feeding raw meats to dogs is also a public health concern (5). Given the current popularity of the BARF diet, concern about environmental contamination with Salmonella spp. from the stools of dogs fed this diet is obvious. There are no published studies examining that aspect of this nutritional trend. The present, preliminary study was conducted to determine if dogs fed a BARF diet shed Salmonella spp. in their stools. Other Sections▼ Abstract Introduction Materials and methods Results Discussion ReferencesMaterials and methods Ten client-owned dogs fed a homemade BARF diet and 10 client-owned dogs (controls) fed various commercial dry dog foods were enrolled in the study. Clients were aware of the purpose of the study prior to the collection of any samples. Inclusion criteria were that the subjects had to be more than 1 y old and generally in good body condition, and they could not have undergone oral antibiotic therapy within the previous 2 mo. Prior to sample collection, the study animals were fed their usual diet (BARF or commercial) for at least 2 mo. One meal-sized sample of food and 1 fresh stool sample were collected from each test subject by the owners. Samples were promptly presented to the chief study investigator, who submitted them to the Provincial Laboratory of Public Health for southern Alberta, where they were cultured for Salmonella spp. The specific serovar of any Salmonella sp. isolated was serologically identified. This laboratory is routinely used for detection of foodborne pathogens by the Calgary Regional Health Authority and is very experienced in the culture and identification of Salmonella spp. from food and stool samples.The data were analyzed with a commercial software program (SAS System for Windows, Release 8.0; SAS Institute, Cary, North Carolina, USA). The Salmonella spp. culture-positive rates were compared between BARF and commercial-diet groups with 1-sided Fisher's exact tests (6). Other Sections▼ Abstract Introduction Materials and methods Results Discussion ReferencesResults The culture results from the food and stool samples are summarized in Table 1. All food and stool samples from the controls were negative for Salmonella spp. Eighty percent of the BARF-diet samples were positive for Salmonella spp.: S. Braenderup and S. Schwarzengrund were each cultured from 3 samples, and S. Hadar was cultured from 2 samples. Thirty percent of the dogs fed a BARF diet had positive stool cultures for Salmonella spp.: 2 samples yielded S. Schwarzengrund, and 1 was positive for S. Braenderup. One BARF-fed subject had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from both its food and its stool sample. One subject that had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from its food sample had S. Braenderup identified in its stool sample. Another dog with a negative food sample was shedding S. Schwarzengrund in its stool. Table 1. From the results of this limited study, a BARF diet is significantly more likely than a commercial diet to contain Salmonella spp. (P < 0.001), and BARF-fed dogs are more likely than commercially fed dogs to shed Salmonella spp. in their stools (P = 0.105). Other Sections▼ Abstract Introduction Materials and methods Results Discussion ReferencesDiscussion This preliminary study found that 30% of stool samples from dogs fed homemade BARF diets contained various Salmonella serovars, whereas none of the samples from dogs fed commercial dry diets contained Salmonella spp. Although these results are suggestive, they are not statistically significant owing to the small number of dogs studied. Larger numbers of dogs or multiple stool samples from each dog might have allowed the results to reach statistical significance. Unfortunately, the limited funding to this private clinic for this study did not allow for the inclusion of more study animals or multiple cultures from individual subjects. Though interesting, the fact that % of BARF food samples cultured positive for Salmonella spp. is not surprising, given the well-documented prevalence of Salmonella spp. in raw chicken (3). The fact that none of the commercial food samples cultured positive for Salmonella spp. was not unexpected.Of the 3 positive stool samples, 1 was from a dog whose food contained the same Salmonella serovar, 1 was from a dog whose food contained a different serovar, and the 3rd was from a dog whose food tested negative. The stool cultures may have reflected previous dietary contamination. Given the high number of positive food cultures, one could speculate that had multiple stool samples from dogs fed a BARF diet been assessed, more than 30% of them would have yielded Salmonella spp.The results of this preliminary study prove that some dogs fed a BARF diet shed Salmonella spp. in their stools. This fact should be a consideration for owners choosing to feed this diet and be of especial concern for those with young children, the aged, or other people who may have compromised immune systems. We hope that this study will serve as an impetus for further study, with more subjects and multiple stool samples from each subject, to fully elucidate the public health concerns of this popular feeding trend. Given the high percentage of BARF diets that were positive for Salmonella spp. on culture, strict hygiene must be implemented when handling this food. In addition, the food bowl, the feeding area, and the pet's mouth must be considered as potential sources of Salmonella. Footnotes Acknowledgments The authors thank Dr. C. Booker for assisting with the statistics and Mr. Larry Crowe for helping with the cultures. CVJ This study was funded in part by the Animal Welfare Foundation of Canada. Address correspondence to Dr. Daniel J. Joffe. Reprints will not be available from the authors. Other Sections▼ Abstract Introduction Materials and methods Results Discussion ReferencesReferences 1. Billinghurst I. Feeding the adult dog. In: Give Your Dog a Bone. Alexandria, Australia: Bridge Printery, 1993:265–280. 2. Freeman L, Michel KE. Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;218:705–709. [PubMed] 3. Houston DL. USDA and Salmonella control. Proc 91st Annu Meet US Anim Health Assoc, 1987:454–460. 4. Green CE. Salmonellosis. In: Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1990:235–240. 5. LeJune JT, Hancock DD. Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;219:1222–1225. [PubMed] 6. Daniel WW. Biostatistics: a Foundation for Analysis in the Health Sciences. 4th ed. New York: Wiley & Sons, 1987:537–552. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Articles from The Canadian Veterinary Journal are provided here courtesy of Canadian Veterinary Medical Association PubMed articles by these authorsJoffe, D. Schlesinger, D. PubMed related articles The risk of salmonellae shedding by dogs fed Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets. Can Vet J. 2007 Jan; 48(1):69-75. [Can Vet J. 2007] Evaluation of the risks of shedding Salmonellae and other potential pathogens by therapy dogs fed raw diets in Ontario and Alberta. Zoonoses Public Health. 2008 Oct; 55(8-10):470-. [Zoonoses Public Health. 2008] Occurrence and characterization of Salmonella from chicken nuggets, strips, and pelleted broiler feed. J Food Prot. 2007 Oct; 70(10):2251-8. [J Food Prot. 2007] Review[Contamination with Campylobacter and Salmonella in chicken meat and its control] Shokuhin Eiseigaku Zasshi. 2006 Aug; 47(4):J265-6. [shokuhin Eiseigaku Zasshi. 2006] ReviewPublic health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Nov 1; 219(9):1222-5. [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001] » See reviews... | » See all... Recent Activity Clear Turn Off Turn On Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken dietsPreliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken dietsYour browsing activity is empty. Activity recording is turned off. Turn recording back on LinksPubMed Taxonomy Taxonomy Tree Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs.J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Mar 1; 218(5):705-9. [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001]See more articles cited in this paragraphReviewPublic health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs.J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Nov 1; 219(9):1222-5. [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001]See more articles cited in this paragraphReviewPublic health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs.J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Nov 1; 219(9):1222-5. [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001]See more articles cited in this paragraphYou are here: NCBI > Literature > PubMed CentralWrite to the Help Desk Simple NCBI DirectoryGetting Started NCBI Help Manual NCBI Handbook Training & Tutorials Resources Literature DNA & RNA Proteins Sequence Analysis Genes & Expression Genomes & Maps Domains & Structures Genetics & Medicine Taxonomy Data & Software Training & Tutorials Homology Small Molecules Variation Popular PubMed PubMed Central Bookshelf BLAST Gene Nucleotide Protein GEO Conserved Domains Structure PubChem Featured GenBank Reference Sequences Map Viewer Genome Projects Human Genome Mouse Genome Influenza Virus Primer-BLAST Sequence Read Archive NCBI Information About NCBI Research at NCBI NCBI Newsletter NCBI FTP Site NIH DHHS USA.gov Copyright | Disclaimer | Privacy | Accessibility | Contact National Center for Biotechnology Information, U.S. National Library of Medicine 8600 Rockville Pike, Bethesda MD, 20894 USA So in conclusion all of us that feed a raw diet to our hounds are gonna die from food poisoning! I find this quite amusing because our collective experience seems to suggest otherwise... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skellyb 8 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Working dogs have a high risk of deveoping gastric leasions and this will increase gut permability and alow cross over of bacteria and there resultant poisions to the blood stream, not good on the long term. Dogs can deal with the bacteria but not the poisons and continuos administrations is probabily not a good idea. I feed a lot of rabbit that is prepared and frozen then fed defrosted after a fortnight and this is unlikely to carry a heavey bacterial load whereas pet mince is very likely to do so. I do feed butchers waste but only once a week or so to minimise risk. If I had younge children/babies in the house i'd not use it because althuogh the risks maybe low it's just not worth it, family/people must come first! Skelly a lot of words but not saying much that not the usual barfist propaganda, I'll post a study that compares BARF against commercial after this and bare in mind the British, American, Canadian etc veterinary Associations must all know less than you lol. Sandymere, once again you confuse what I say with BARF (as in the Billinghurst so called diet), once again I DO NOT FEED BARF. I have never advocated feedng "pet mince" and never would. the British, American, Canadian etc veterinary Associations must all know less than you lol. The majority of vets I have dealt with know very little regarding diet as it is not something that is studied in detail whilst at University and what is studied is sponsored by and materials provided by the main commercial food manufacturers (check with whatever vet you use). Regarding the "study you have posted, once again it is flawed and even admits it Although these results are suggestive, they are not statistically significant owing to the small number of dogs studied. No mention of type of chicken (minced, carcase, quarter etc), how stored, what other food was fed in the "diet etc It does not say whether the dogs were tested before the study started (and therefore may already have salmonella present) neither does it say whether the people feeding (and also their families) were tested (humans can also pass on salmonella to animals). As % of food samples carried Salmonella it is very odd that only 30% of dogs had salmonella present. None of the dogs were deemed unhealthy or suffering from Diarrhoea This limited and flawed exercise spreads a dangerous message but Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contaminationyou (and others) ought to look at what wasn't tested before jumping to conclusions and the word in the above quote "MAY"Lots of people feed raw, even yourself in your own "superior" way, (and barf for that matter) without any problems re dog or family health and I have no doubt that more and more will be doing so in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
the night hunter 130 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Cant any one see all this is just a load of shit. dogs eat MEAT simple its how they are built. its just another case of health and saftey gone to the wall.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skellyb 8 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Cant any one see all this is just a load of shit. dogs eat MEAT simple its how they are built. its just another case of health and saftey gone to the wall.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seems to me there's only one who can't see, the rest of us seem to be pretty much in agreement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hollie 21 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 What a load of tosh, bloody hell, a dog will pick up and eat a rotting bit of flesh, everything about them is designed to eat RAW meat, the easiest way around the 'scare' tactics, cos thats exactly what they are, is to practise good hygiene, wash your hands after use and make sure surfaces are clean. At the end of the day you can always feed something that is completly un-natural to a dog..........like.............dried dog food that doesnt even contain any meat BUT in the long run you are more likely to spend more money at the vets because they are full of chemicals and nasty colours, you wouldn't feed a horse cat food, it is completly un natural, so why feed dogs food that goes against everything their bodies are desinged to do Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skellyb 8 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 At the end of the day you can always feed something that is completly un-natural to a dog..........like.............dried dog food that doesnt even contain any meat BUT in the long run you are more likely to spend more money at the vets because they are full of chemicals and nasty colours, you wouldn't feed a horse cat food, it is completly un natural, so why feed dogs food that goes against everything their bodies are desinged to do How bloody true is that. Not so long ago cows were being fed protein supplements in the form of meat and bone meal (remains of other cattle),of course the vets knew best,BSE and vCJD were the consequence of feeding totally unnatural foods to animals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hollie 21 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 At the end of the day you can always feed something that is completly un-natural to a dog..........like.............dried dog food that doesnt even contain any meat BUT in the long run you are more likely to spend more money at the vets because they are full of chemicals and nasty colours, you wouldn't feed a horse cat food, it is completly un natural, so why feed dogs food that goes against everything their bodies are desinged to do How bloody true is that. Not so long ago cows were being fed protein supplements in the form of meat and bone meal (remains of other cattle),of course the vets knew best,BSE and vCJD were the consequence of feeding totally unnatural foods to animals. Feeding meat eating animals should be so bloody simple.....feed them meat!! but is made so confusing and it really shouldnt be. I have only been feeding raw for a few months with help from people off this site but i chose to educate myself about dog food and it does become a bit obsessive, i had to feed a tin of food the other night because i ran out of meat and it nearly broke my heart to think what shite i was feeding them, even though i went for the best canned food i could! funnily enough they both became aggressive while eating it as well, never ever had any food aggression from either but they both snapped while eating tinned food (dont know if there is any relevance to that but it put me off it even more!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
edp 0 Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Its easy to get taken in by biased studies like this. What you have to ask is who would fund the study? Its the same as those statemnents you read like "there is no scientific evidence of any benefit to feeding a raw meaty bones diet". Of course theres no evidence when no proper studies have been done! I should imagine ther is funding available to anyone who wants to research the negatives of a non-profitable diet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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