rjimmer 4 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) Phoenix Arms Are these people breaking the law? Their home page says that nothing on their site requires a licence in the UK. Lots of guns there in chamberings for which ammo is available. There's even a 10 gauge damascus barreled hammergun - 10ga ammo is readily available and relatively common. J. Not one 12 bore centre-fire shotgun there. 10 bores with 2&5/8 inch chambers are considered obsolete. It isn't on the HO list though. Besides, there are other guns on that page for which ammo is commercially produced. It's irrelevant though. The HO guidance is not law, various cases have shown that to be the case, including the one in which a guy was not convicted of possessing and selling a 7.65mm Luger which is not on the list. You're still ignoring the fact that I have a rifle which chamberes and fires .38 Special ammo. All you are doing is parroting the HO line even though I have provided evidence of cases (including me) that shows it to be runnish. J. All you have to do to prove that your original advice, not to bother with a SGC for the first poster's 12 bore, was right, is to go to a dealer or a SGC holder and ask to buy a 12 bore shotgun, of any age, without giving them your SGC, if you have one, telling them you do not intend to use it. Better still if you haven't got one, just like any bank robber. Edited January 17, 2010 by rjimmer Quote Link to post
rjimmer 4 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Not one 12 bore centre-fire shotgun there. 10 bores with 2&5/8 inch chambers are considered obsolete. It isn't on the HO list though. ANTIQUES The provisions of the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997 do not apply to any antique firearm held as a curiosity or ornament. The word 'antique' is not defined in the Act, but it is suggested that the categories below should be used as a guide in deciding whether a particular firearm might be considered an 'antique' for these purposes. Part I: Old weapons which should benefit from exemption as antiques under section 58 (2) of the Firearms Act 1968 (a) All muzzle-loading firearms; ( Breech-loading firearms capable of discharging a rim-fire cartridge other than 4mm, 5mm, .22" or .23" (or their metric equivalents), 6mm or 9mm rimfire; © Breech-loading firearms using ignition systems other than rimfire and centrefire (These include pin-fire and needle-fire ignition systems, as well as the more obscure lip fire, cup-primed, teat fire and base fire systems); (d) Breech-loading centre-fire arms originally chambered for one of the obsolete cartridges listed in Annex B and which retain their original chambering; (e) Vintage (pre 1939) rifles, shotguns and punt guns chambered for the following cartridges expressed in imperial measurements: 32 bore 24 bore, 14 bore, 10 bore (2 5/8" and 2 7/8" only), 8 bore, 4 bore, 3 bore, 2 bore, 1 1/8 bore, 1 1/4 bore and 1 1/2 bore, and vintage punt guns and shotguns with bores of 10 or greater. Note (i) - The exemption does not apply to ammunition, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm will normally indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curio or ornament. Quote Link to post
JonathanL 4 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Phoenix Arms Are these people breaking the law? Their home page says that nothing on their site requires a licence in the UK. Lots of guns there in chamberings for which ammo is available. There's even a 10 gauge damascus barreled hammergun - 10ga ammo is readily available and relatively common. J. Not one 12 bore centre-fire shotgun there. 10 bores with 2&5/8 inch chambers are considered obsolete. It isn't on the HO list though. Besides, there are other guns on that page for which ammo is commercially produced. It's irrelevant though. The HO guidance is not law, various cases have shown that to be the case, including the one in which a guy was not convicted of possessing and selling a 7.65mm Luger which is not on the list. You're still ignoring the fact that I have a rifle which chamberes and fires .38 Special ammo. All you are doing is parroting the HO line even though I have provided evidence of cases (including me) that shows it to be runnish. J. All you have to do to prove that your original advice, not to bother with a SGC for the first poster's 12 bore, was right, is to go to a dealer or a SGC holder and ask to buy a 12 bore shotgun, of any age, without giving them your SGC, if you have one, telling them you do not intend to use it. Better still if you haven't got one, just like any bank robber. No, as I've said that would be illegal because I wouldn't be acquiring it as a curiosity or ornament. Besides, what you are saying has already happened in Mick Shephers case. He sold a Luger in 7.65mm (a current production cartridge) and was found not guilty. Why was he? That gun was section 5, far more serious than Sec.2, and he was still acquitted. It would be pointless anyway because few people would actually sell me one because they think they can't - it doesn't mean they are right though. All you are doing is telling me that this particular gun does not benefit from the exemption but you aren't telling me why - I mean, in a legal sense. It should be easy to demonstrate either through interpretation of the English language or some case-law as to how the sentence; "(2)Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to an antique firearm which is sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as a curiosity or ornament." could possily be reduced to mean "Only antique guns that are on a list drawn up by the Home Office". It can't it just can't, not by any logical useage of the English language. The sentence even starts with the word "nothing". Nothing means, well, nothing. The sentence clearly refers to all antique firearms, rather than just some of them, as long as they are possessed for the relevant reasons. Think about it for minute. Take this analogy. Currently, any vehicle which was made or regsitered prior to 1973 is exempt from payment of Road Tax. If the DVLA decided to say that they would only allow veicles with say, diesel engines benefit from the free road tax do you think it would be legal? Of course it wouldn't because the DVLA has no authority to make law and neither does the HO. The Firearms Act says unequivically that all antique firearms are exempt from all of the provisions of that Act - as long as they are possessed for the specified reasons. You cannot argue with that...that's what it says. Re-read it if you are having difficulty understanding it. All you have to do is show me how that section translates into only applying to certain firearms and I'll admit I'm wrong. It shouldn't be too difficult, surely? Quote Link to post
JonathanL 4 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 The guy writing this is a forensic firearms examiner http://www.mail-archive.com/cybershooters@mail-it.com/msg00540.html "From: Jonathan Spencer, >In Oct 1898, a subscriber mentioned a list of home office approved >breeech loading fire arms, which could be classed as antiques, does any >one know what these calibres are. The list has been updated recently: isn't it in the latest (10th?) FCC report? Of course, it must be borne in mind that the Home Office 'guidance' is equivalent to this: Henry Ford's first car *would be* an antique excepting that because one can still obtain petrol, his does not qualify for 'antique' status. The HO positions - presented to the Courts by various firearms examiners from the FSS - has been rejected a significant number of times. The Courts do not buy the line that availability of ammo determines antique status. >What is the law regarding fire arms held in museums, IE public, private >& other museums, also the Pattern Room. The Pattern Room belongs to the MOD and so as Crown exemption. I'm not up to date on museum licences etc. >-- >Bill Harriman has extensive experience with the courts on these matters, you >can give him a call at 01244 573010 at BASC if you have a question. Bill Harriman recently wrote that in his opinion the HO position cannot be upheld either legally or morally. --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin, 1759 " How much more evidence do people need? J. Quote Link to post
rjimmer 4 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 How much more evidence do people need? J. We want to see you with a usable 12 bore that you have been able to buy without a Shotgun Certificate. Quote Link to post
JonathanL 4 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 How much more evidence do people need? J. We want to see you with a usable 12 bore that you have been able to buy without a Shotgun Certificate. Firstly, as I have said, it would be illegal because I wouldn't be buying it as a curiosity or ornament but rather to prove a point. Secondly, you wouldn't believe me anyway. You blindly accept anything that has been spoon-fed to you by the HO and are too cowed by them to actually think for your self to the point that you think they have a right to ignore English, so why should I believe that you are going to believe anything I tell you? I've told you. Find me a case where someone has been convicted purely by virtue of an antique gun not being on the sacred list and I may start taking you seriously. I have access to a massive university law library and and even bigger online law database (I presume you have access to neither) and I can't find any such case. Nor can I find any legal opinion anywhere, in any legal journal, which goes along with the HO line. I can find plenty of cases where people have been acquitted of possessing guns which the HO specifically say should result in a conviction though. J. Quote Link to post
rjimmer 4 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 How much more evidence do people need? J. We want to see you with a usable 12 bore that you have been able to buy without a Shotgun Certificate. Firstly, as I have said, it would be illegal because I wouldn't be buying it as a curiosity or ornament but rather to prove a point. Just do it, or find someone else who can do it. Quote Link to post
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