12 bore s/s hammer gun with damascus barrells

[rjimmer 4]

The requirement that guns be in "obsolete" chamberings has no basis on law and there are even Court cases contradicting it.

 

J.

 

Please state those cases. The information might come in handy.

 

I understood that if ammunition was still being made in a bore, then a license was necessary for the weapon. 12 bore ammunition is still readily available, I believe.

Firearms 'may' be different, because you have to have the right to possess ammunition on your FAC.

[Guest Mass_G3nocide]

I have 3 shotguns 2 of which are over a 100 years old are you telling me they dont need to be on a license??? 12 bore shoguns shells are readily available to all and sundry so your now going to say that an old antique 12 bore shotgun doesnt shoot new cartridge's so therefore you dont need it on a license??? I personally dont care,But i cant see how a LIVE GUN Doesnt need to be on a license.Even if it is old.

[rjimmer 4]

I wonder what plod would say if they saw, through the window, an old 12-bore hung on the front room wall and, on entering the house, found it to be usable and that elsewhere in the house, not under lock and key, was ammunition that fitted it.

[JonathanL 4]

The requirement that guns be in "obsolete" chamberings has no basis on law and there are even Court cases contradicting it.

 

J.

 

Please state those cases. The information might come in handy.

 

I understood that if ammunition was still being made in a bore, then a license was necessary for the weapon. 12 bore ammunition is still readily available, I believe.

Firearms 'may' be different, because you have to have the right to possess ammunition on your FAC.

 

 

There is a case involving a .22rf War Office rifle made in 1903/4'ish. The guidance states in no uncertain terms that firearms in .22rf should not benefit from the exemption in Sec.58(2). The case in question resulted in the guy having his conviction for possessing it quashed as it was held to be an asntique and he possessed it as an ornament. Hence, directly contradicting the HO guidance and actually pre-dates it so the HO cannot claim they didn't know. There was another appeal case involving pistols of a later date which also resulted in the conviction being quashed. Mick Shapeard the dealer who was prosecuted for selling pistols was acquitted at trial and his case involved a Luger and a 1930's browing pistol, if I recall correctly.

 

I will dig out the case names when I get a chance.

 

The HO guidance tells you that if ammo is "readily available" then a gun cannot benefit from the examption for antiques. This simply is not true and has no basis in law. If you think it does then please point it out to me. The Firearms Act is perfectly clear on the subject and has no reference at all to calibres, chamberings or anything else.

 

J.

 

Edit: The case of the pistols (which were actually slightly older than the War Office rifle, not younger) was Richards v Curwen 1977.

Edited January 14, 2010 by JonathanL

[JonathanL 4]

I have 3 shotguns 2 of which are over a 100 years old are you telling me they dont need to be on a license??? 12 bore shoguns shells are readily available to all and sundry so your now going to say that an old antique 12 bore shotgun doesnt shoot new cartridge's so therefore you dont need it on a license??? I personally dont care,But i cant see how a LIVE GUN Doesnt need to be on a license.Even if it is old.

 

It's easy to see how it doesn't need a cert. The Firearms Act says it doesn't as long as it is only possessed as a curiosity or ornament. If your 100 year old guns are possessed for purposes other than this then they need to be on ticket. As I have already pointed out, I have a perfectly usable rifle in .380 Rook which is not on my FAC but has been in the past so the police know full well I have it and made no objections to taking it off my cert, nor to putting it on in the first place. If it were illegal I would have been nicked when I applied to do so.

 

What other interpretation could you possibly put on Sec.58(2)?

 

The calibre/chambering thing is beside the point. There is no basis in law for it. My .380 rifle will chamber and fire .38 Special ammo without problems.

 

The ONLY considerations are two; Is it an antique? If you can answer yes to this question the other is whether you possess it as a curiosity or ornament. If you can answer "yes" to either of these then it benefits from the exemption in sec.58(2).

 

J.

[Guest Mass_G3nocide]

I cant personally see that being right why would anyone be allowed a gun with or without a SGC/FAC With the said gun not being on license if this were true then thousands of people like myself with guns of an old age from 1800-1950's wouldnt bother paying the amount of 50 quid every 5 years....This said why wouldnt every tom,Dick and harry who got refused a sgc/fac just go out and buy an old gun or aquire one.There would be no need for an amnesty and gun crime would be an everyday occurence like in the USA.I personally like knowing that it's hard for people to get a sgc/fac and that they need to be assesed by a FAO before they can be trusted with a live gun.Ammunition is easy to get hold of and people that say yes to your previous questions can lie.And therefore get a gun.This does not add up,I will ask my FEO when i next see him as i had an old gun similar to the one on this thread and i spoke to my gunsmith and he deactivated it as it was illegal.

[JonathanL 4]

I cant personally see that being right why would anyone be allowed a gun with or without a SGC/FAC With the said gun not being on license if this were true then thousands of people like myself with guns of an old age from 1800-1950's wouldnt bother paying the amount of 50 quid every 5 years....This said why wouldnt every tom,Dick and harry who got refused a sgc/fac just go out and buy an old gun or aquire one.There would be no need for an amnesty and gun crime would be an everyday occurence like in the USA.I personally like knowing that it's hard for people to get a sgc/fac and that they need to be assesed by a FAO before they can be trusted with a live gun.Ammunition is easy to get hold of and people that say yes to your previous questions can lie.And therefore get a gun.This does not add up,I will ask my FEO when i next see him as i had an old gun similar to the one on this thread and i spoke to my gunsmith and he deactivated it as it was illegal.

 

It's not relevant what you can see as being right or not. The law is clear. I mean, how else can you interpret Sec.58(2)?

 

You're missing the point though. People get FAC's/SGC's because their guns are NOT possessed only as curiosities or ornaments. If you posseess an antique gun for the purpse of shooting vermin, for instance, it doesn't get the benefit of the exemption. Ys, you can lie to the questions but I'm just stating what the legal issue is. This is the law - like it or not.

 

Google the case I posted above. If it's illegal then why do I have a perfectly usable rook rifle which isn't on cert thatr the cops know about as they took it off my cert for me? Look at Mick Shepherds web-site. He sold a 7.65mm Luger and was acquitted as it was an antique. www.micksguns.com.

 

J.

[JonathanL 4]

From the HO guidance;

 

"8.4 It remains the case that where an antique

firearm is possessed for any other purpose

than as a “curiosity or ornamentâ€, all the

provisions of the Firearms Acts from 1968 to

1997 will continue to apply, including those

relating to certificate requirements. The intent

to fire the gun concerned, even with blank

charge or ammunition (for example for the

purposes of historical re-enactment displays),

would take it beyond the terms of “curiosity

or ornamentâ€. This does not preclude the

possession of such firearms on certificate for

the purposes of collection and occasional firing. Where the “good reason†for

possession is collection and not target

shooting, section 44 requiring membership of

a club to be named on the certificate is not

applicable. In the case of such firearms which

might otherwise benefit from section 58(2),

but where the owner wishes to fire them for

test, research, re-enactment, target shooting or

competition purposes, no test of frequency of

use should be applied: the primary reason for

possession may be collection, and the owner

may properly not wish to subject such an

arm to the wear and tear of regular use. An

antique may therefore be brought on to

certificate or removed, as the case might be,

from time to time or where there is a change

in ownership. A signed statement of intent

should be sufficient to effect the necessary

change of status when required. A variation

fee would become payable where an

“antique†is brought onto certificate to

allow it to be fired."

 

J.

[JonathanL 4]

The War Office rifle case was R v Thompson 1994. I've read it but can't locate it at thew mo. Think I have a copy on my other computer. The rifle was actually 1906.

 

It's mentiomned here but the page is all screwed up. http://www.btinternet.com/~jmcnair/antiquerules.htm You have to select all the text to se it for some reason.

 

J.

[SEAN3513 7]

surely this only applies if the gun ( antique) was origianlly on a cert in your name ??? and it is of obsolete calibre or de-activated ???

 

you surely CAN'T walk into an rfd, buy an antique gun, claim you are NOT going to fire it, only hang it over the fireplace and he will sell it to you without a valid/current cert ???????

 

i certainly wouldn't risk it......it WILL end up going to court and yes, you may not get prosecuted, but then again you might....and then its bye bye cert / guns etc.

 

and if you are cleared is it worth the hassle ????

 

i would say that the "LAW" ( SECTION 58(2)) is open to interpretation, it certainly isnt black and white !!!!!!

 

not worth the risk....IMO

 

cheers

 

sean

[Shoot 0]

Thanks for all your great and informative replies,albeit they have gone off track a bit from the purpose of the thread.

I am familiar with the law and have added the gun to my license, I am however curious if anyone could put a value on the gun as I never intended to keep it and fully intend to sell it on behalf of my former cutomer

[SEAN3513 7]

i pm'd shoot with this information......i will post it here for eveyone else to read, which dates his hammer gun to between 1891-1905, as for value ????.......i have seen similar ones sell for upto £600, the condition of "shoots" gun is very good and if it is still in "proof" could sell for £5-600, if out of "proof" and only suitable for "display" purposes it will probably sell for £3-400......hope this helps

 

History of T & W Harrison

 

 

As a jack-of-all-trades and something of an inventor, Thomas Harrison advertised to the people of Carlisle in March 1873 that he had “fitted up a room in Longcake’s Lane as a wash house with a large boiler.â€

 

The Harrisons shop, right, on Bank Street

That was not all because he had “a double action cinder sifting machine†of his own invention and make.

He also referred to “one of his improved chimney sweeping machines having a rectilinear reciprocating motion in its passage through the flueâ€.

If that was not enough, Thomas offered to repair magic lantern machines and exhibit them at schools and private parties, adding that he was an “artist in fireworksâ€.

He certainly knew about gunpowder. He described himself in the Carlisle Journal advert as a “late gunsmithâ€.

Leading expert on Cumbrian guns and their makers, Allan Allison, wrote in 1996: “Despite trading as gun makers and gun dealers in Carlisle for almost a century, there is little or no surviving documentary evidence of the Harrison business other than the rudimentary entries in the periodic trade directories of the district.â€

With four generations of Harrison gunsmiths and two of them called Lancelot, they should be easy to trace.

The first Lancelot was born in 1758 and when he married Margaret Richardson at Great Salkeld on July 1 1783, he was a blacksmith of Skelton.

It was while living at Dalston in 1799 that he began as a gunsmith.

An advert in the Journal in July 1807 marks the beginning of Lancelot’s association with the city.

It was stated: “His abilities as a gun maker are well known and he intends in future to carry on his business in Carlisle.â€

Lancelot Harrison, said the newspaper, was late of Dalston and had removed to Rickergate.

There was a demand for bespoke guns but not enough to be exclusive, so in 1811 Harrison is listed as an ironmonger and gun maker in Rickergate.

As Lancelot also “had great experience in making bandages for ruptures, which never failed to give reliefâ€, he sold trusses.

Success meant a move to Scotch Street, where, aged 68 and “after a protracted indispositionâ€, Lancelot died on September 3 1826.

With three children, Thomas born 1784, Mary Ann (she preferred Ann) born 1786 and Lancelot born 1798, and no will, Lancelot senior must have made arrangements for continuing the business.

Early on, Thomas left to seek his fortune in London followed by his brother but it was Lancelot who returned to enter into partnership with his spinster sister to continue the shop.

To initiate the new business “L and A Harrison, gunsmiths, Scotch Street, thanked the public and customers since their commencementâ€, in the Journal of August 1828.

Another advert for the shop appeared in July 1832, but in October a legal notice in the newspaper stated that the partnership between the siblings had been dissolved by mutual consent and in future would be carried on by Lancelot alone.

Under new management the business continued to flourish, and Lancelot was joined by his London-born nephews, Thomas and William Harrison and their sister Ann, who had married her cousin, Joseph Crozier Harrison, also a gunsmith.

A business crisis arose when Lancelot’s mother died in December 1839. Within three weeks Lancelot was ‘selling off his whole stock-in-trade at reduced prices’.

At this point Thomas and William agreed to take on the firm and in July 1840 the new partnership of Harrison and Co was advertised in the former shop at 10 Scotch Street, with the addition of an angling department.

About this time guns manufactured by the company were marked “T and W Harrison, Carlisle and Penrithâ€, and Lancelot left the city for Penrith in 1844 to become agent for the firm there.

This was confirmed by the 1851 census which shows that Lancelot, a retired gunsmith, unmarried, was living at Union Place, Penrith.

It was there that he died in 1880, aged 87, leaving a fortune of just under £18,000. The two brothers continued in the Scotch Street shop which was later renumbered 19.

This adjoined Longcake’s Lane and hence Thomas’ 1873 advert. Was this T and W Harrison’s father?

Plans were approved for a house and shop for Messrs Harrison in the newly laid out Bank Street in 1877 when tenders were advertised for immediate construction.

With the building completed, T and W Harrison announced in July 1879 that they had moved into their new premises, 6 and 8 Bank Street.

It was there that William died in 1891 aged 75.

In his will, William left his share in the partnership to his gunsmith nephew and namesake, William Harrison, son of his sister Ann. So the firm continued as “T and W Harrisonâ€.

As a business partner Thomas Harrison cannot have been easy to get on with. The Journal stated: “He had clear and decided views which he was never afraid to express, but his somewhat abrupt manner did not prevent the sterling character of the man being understood and appreciated by those who knew him.â€

He continued as a gunsmith, said the newspaper, “until his last illnessâ€, which must have been in August 1902 as it was then reported the business was under new management.

With the death of Thomas Harrison in May 1904, aged 91, his nephew took no further part in the business and in January 1905 “the shop and dwelling house over, lately Messrs T and W Harrison†was offered for sale.

It briefly became a grocer’s shop and in 1913 was sold to the Prudential Insurance Co to be rebuilt as their Carlisle office in 1920.

The stock-in-trade of Messrs Harrison was acquired by their one-time gunsmith, G Creighton, according to Allan Allison “until c1915 when the tools and stock were bought up by a local competitor, Robert Raine of Botchergateâ€.

[JonathanL 4]

surely this only applies if the gun ( antique) was origianlly on a cert in your name ??? and it is of obsolete calibre or de-activated ???

 

Nope, it applies to any antique gun of any description. The first paragraph of the guidance reads;

 

" 8.1 Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act exempts

from the provisions of the Act including

certificate controls under sections 1 and 2

and prohibition under section 5 all antique

firearms which are sold, transferred,

purchased, acquired or possessed as curiosities

or ornaments."

 

My rook rifle was not on my FAC when I first got it. It was my fathers - he bought it from san antique shop when he was a kid or a teenager and never had it on FAC. I had it of off-ticket for years before it got put on. I told them I had it under the Sec.58 exemption, they put it on and then took it off again a few years later.

 

Although it is an a chambering which is "obsolete" in that the ammo isn't made any more, it chambers and fires .38 Special ammo which is what I used to use in it.

 

you surely CAN'T walk into an rfd, buy an antique gun, claim you are NOT going to fire it, only hang it over the fireplace and he will sell it to you without a valid/current cert ???????

 

You can. Lots of RFD's also sell antiques free of certificate controls. There are also lots of traders who don't have RFD's who sell nothing but antique guns because they don't need an RFD.

 

i certainly wouldn't risk it......it WILL end up going to court and yes, you may not get prosecuted, but then again you might....and then its bye bye cert / guns etc.

 

It won't. I haven't been prosecuted for my rook rifle (and I never expected to be) and I have a small pile of other antique guns as well. All muzzleloaders but which would work if I wanted them to and the cops have seen them too because I keep them next to my cabinets.

 

and if you are cleared is it worth the hassle ???

 

i would say that the "LAW" ( SECTION 58(2)) is open to interpretation, it certainly isnt black and white !!!!!!

 

not worth the risk....IMO

 

Sec.58 isn't really open to interpretation. It is a very clear statement, in reality. If a gun is an antique, and you possess it for one of the reasons stated then it's exempt from the provisions of the Act. The only thing which may be open to argument is the actual definition to be applied to the word "antique" as it isn't defined in the Act. Whatever interpretation you do put on it though cannot relate to it's calibre or chambering. An antique, is an antiqe. To say that a gun isn't an antique because of some feature of it's desogn is illogical. If you were to try and say that one 200 year old chair was an antique yet another, essentially identical one, wasn't because it was made from a different type of wood then people would think you were an idiot.

 

As I say, R v Thompson totally contradicts what the HO are saying as it involved a rifle in .22rf and they say that no gun in .22rf should ever benefot from the exemption. Also, Mick Shephard was prosecuted for selling a 7.65mm Luger and was acquitted.

 

Firearms being exempt from certificate controls is not unique to antiques. There is also an exemption in the Act for miniature rifles for people who own, operate and shoot on miniature rifle ranges. There is nothing to stop you from setting up a miniature rifle range in your garage if you want (apart from maybe planning) and acquiring a load of .22 rifles without any certificate. There are some of these ranges around still.

 

J.

Edited January 15, 2010 by JonathanL

[rjimmer 4]

I think I would prefer to take Bill Harriman's advice:

 

"Until there is some root and branch review of the matter, my advice to potential collectors of antique firearms is to stay within the Home Office Guidelines, although this may seem irksome. If you want to collect old firearms that fall outside of these, then apply for a firearm or shotgun certificate as appropriate. They can be granted for the purposes of collecting providing that the guns are not to be fired and no ammunition is possessed for them. Generally, most police licensing departments are not normally too difficult about granting such certificates."

[JonathanL 4]

I think I would prefer to take Bill Harriman's advice:

 

"Until there is some root and branch review of the matter, my advice to potential collectors of antique firearms is to stay within the Home Office Guidelines, although this may seem irksome. If you want to collect old firearms that fall outside of these, then apply for a firearm or shotgun certificate as appropriate. They can be granted for the purposes of collecting providing that the guns are not to be fired and no ammunition is possessed for them. Generally, most police licensing departments are not normally too difficult about granting such certificates."

 

This is all very well (and I agree with it to an extent) but what about if you want to collect pistols? If you want a 100 year old pistol which isn't on the HO obsolete list then what do you do because you cannot be issued with an FAC for a pistol as they are Sec.5, not Sec.1?

 

Sec.58(2) is very clear. It exempts anitque guns from all the provisions of the Act and the home office accept in their guidance that that includes Sections 1, 2 and 5.

 

Remember also that Bill Harrimans article is about 12 years old now and we have had Mick Shephards case since then. Although that was just a first instance case so does not create a binding precident on the courts, it will probably be pursuasive. The bottom line is that he was acquited of possessing a Luger in a non-obsolete chambering, and there was at least one other semi-auto pistol involved too. There is no way of geting round that.

 

Bill Harriman is right about the ammo. The exmption applies only to antique firearms, not to antique ammunition.

 

Admittedly, if it were me I would be very wary of looking like I was trying to take the p!ss on this matter, quite honestly. It doesn't change the law though. Antique firearms are exempt from all the provisions of the Firearms Act. If it were my antique 12bore and I didn't want it on cert - or didn't have one - then I think I would be keeping it off ticket. Personally, I'd be tempted to pend a fw quid and do a judicial review and seek a declaration from the Court that the gun benfitted from the exemption.

 

J.