Blueprinting- does it make a difference?

[AB TAC 0]

the cost to improve the tolerances during manufacture generally is about 8% of the manufacturing cost, that means taking it from a rough bit of work to perfection, it doesn't matter what the materials are, that is the machining costs for whatever the part is, Personally i have had custom rifles, blue printed rifles and ones I have just put together out of bits, and I haven't found a great deal of difference in any of them,especially when i have a remy 700 VSL 243 win that will shoot under an inch at 600 yards, that's an out of the box with a replacement jewel trigger, the biggest things to consider for accuracy is a good quality barrel, free floating the barrel, proper action bedding, trigger pull, and the correct length of stock, after that ammunition, if the gun wont shoot right after that, then you can only blame the Nut behind the butt.

 

Now to dispel a few old fairy tales, you will see all sorts of gun makers or gunsmiths giving out information on tolerances they work to, its mostly just BULL SxxT, these guys are supposed to be doing work that only 2 or 3 places in the Uk can manage,and boy will you pay for it too, they are places like us, or BAE, BAE and the MOD come to us for some aircraft parts, because they cant make them, in fact there are 3 companies in the Uk capable of working to the tolerances that you see in many adverts,

 

If someone has a £250,000 CNC lathe that will work to 2 or 3 microns, then yeah, these tolerances are possible, if they are using an old manual lathe, then no, its fairy tales.

 

I suggest you take a look at what many adverts say, then make your own mind up,

Ive heard some crap but that just about tops it

 

the crap is most of the people here haven't a clue what their guns are capable of, if you new anything about your guns and how they are made they you wouldn't be making silly comments, but if you want to waste your money on blueprinting that's up to you, as it is any gun will shoot better than you can, you look at this or that on a rifle, the bedding, the crown, trigger, bolt lock up surfaces, and the list goes on, you bolt any gun down to immovable object and fire it, then see how it performs, think you would be surprised at the accuracy, one of the ones that surprised me was how much difference or little difference custom guns produce to factory guns, especially the modern ones, especially in the 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm calibres, on the small bore stuff .22LR, try testing a CZ against a BSA martini and an Anschutz, if you carry out the tests right then you will find bugger all difference in any of them, the CZ will shoot the same as all the others, as you might be able to tell I've spent several years with nothing else to do than bugger about with guns, mostly when i was working abroad and had access to a 500 meter in door air conditioned range, the perfect place for rifle and ammo testing..

 

Try it for custom guns and factory guns, you might just learn something, but I doubt it, because most people will comment, but never do the work to really find out what is the reason for why things happen or don't happen, I was going to write a report on it but lost interest, or I should say got a better interest, anyway if you take scopes, mounts, triggers and stocks out of the equation, then no, there is very little difference in a factory to a custom gun, what is different is the quality and way the other parts are added to the basic rifle, most shooters are looking at plastic stocks, well hunters, they will not make a gun more accurate, that's why target rifles come with a metal or wood stock, and basic hunting rifle stock shapes are not even shaped right to give accuracy, that's probably why a lot of people miss those easy shots.

 

But, the real reason people cannot get a factory gun to work as well as a custom gun is, AMMUNITION, you buy a factory gun, and then feed it with cheap mass produced crap, and you expect it to shoot well, you buy a custom gun you take care of it and give it the finest reloads you can make, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM, ammunition be it reloads or factory ammo has variations in it, bigger variations than you realise and ones that have a greatter effect on ballistics and accuracy than being a factory or custom gun can account for.

 

Now learn something, take any box of good to top quality bullet heads, measure them with a digital micrometer, measure them several times round the diameter, I don't care what make they are, there are variations in dimensions, and nearly every bullet is oval, not round, IT IS THE FIRE FORGING OF THOSE OVAL AND ODD SIZED HEADS AS THEY START DOWN THE BARREL THAT CAUSES THE BIGGEST VARIATION IN THE POINT OF IMPACT,PART OF IT IS A VARIATION IN PRESSURE, AND PART OF IT IS FRICTION, AND PART OF IT IS TIME, TIME IN THE BARREL, OTHER THAN THE NUT BEHIND THE BUTT, add to that case internal dimensions, external dimensions etc, yeah you have a problem even if you are a bench rest champion, Now when you have worked out that some people have put a lot of time, mostly work time into trying to get a rifle to shoot better, then you can consider what the problems are with your own shooting, and in the end you might even work out what the factors effecting accuracy are, and they are not always what you think they are.

 

Anyway, a bunch of us tried everything from making our own heads to all the other tricks shooters use to get consistency, still we had problems with bullet heads being mis shaped. the solution we came up with was to make a die for each bullet shape (not easy or cheap) and to reforge the bullet through the die to a consistent shape using a standard pressure, then weighing and sorting them for consistency.

 

Now, such techniques are never going to make much difference to those who reload by dipping the case in a bowl of powder, tapping some out until it looks right then squeezing a head on top. but it might be of some help to the others out there who don't reload like that, and in the end, if you wish to spend several thousand pounds on blueprinting or a custom gun, well that's up to you, and if you cant get the gun to shoot really well, it isn't my wasted money, so why should I care, money cant cure every problem.

 

Oh and the custom weatherby 260 rem cost me £360 to make,

[AB TAC 0]

Just to put the record straight, Please note, I didn't say I can shoot my 243 to under an inch at 600 yards, I leave that with great envy to a lad in my local gun club, he out shoots everyone, must be getting too old for this game.

 

Al

 

dont mean to be funny mate but i would like to see that. the world record for a 5 shot group is just under a inch at 600 yards. and this is with a custom 6.5-284 which as you no is a bench rest rifle.

The record is just over an inch at 1000 yards. That's 10 rounds not 3 or 5. and i seem to remember it was a light bench rest fired from a prone position with a rest and bag, and i will add, don't go thinking a 6.5-284 is the be all and end all of calibers, you don't need a barrel burner to get accuracy, or for that matter good performance. a bog standard 6.5-08 A square better known as a 260 remington can and will give you a 3000fps using the right bullets and the right barrel.

 

My 243 wont come anywhere near that at 1000, it will group 10 shots in about 8 inches at that range. and is as good as my 260 at 600, tha barrel has had about 3600 rounds through it so I am expecting it to go south at any moment.

 

My 260 will group on or under the inch at 600 Meters, depending on who is using it.

 

Bellow is a 10 shot I did at 600 METERS in 25 to 30 mile an hour winds, and a 5 shot a friend did, the orange disks are 7.5cm across, I don't shoot for competition any more, as i don't really care, to me shooting is about competing against myself, not others, an you can make you own mind up as to what my 260 is, and yeah,you are trying to be funny, The 5 shot group is 1.263 inches vertical centre to centre, and 0.226 horizontally, the guy is in his early 20's and has done better, now lets see what you and some of the others can do, because I think this youngster should be representing the UK, though I very much doubt he would fit the NRA mold as a young target rifle shooter.

 

Finally both of these orange disks were witnessed by the members of 2 clubs, on the Hythe ranges on the 20th Sept 2009.

 

So, now whos being funny????

 

Where did you get 7.5cm from...those Orange disks measure 21cm on my SCREEN!!!

 

Well...I thought it was "Funny"...lighten up guys!!!!

 

Oh yes...and I can do 21cm with my Tikka T3 Lite .223 at 600 with 62g barnaul...well most of them anyway, there is always to odd round that disappears completely and usually end up somewhere in the next county!!

Dam good actions Decker, probably the best you will get from a factory gun for the price, been looking at one myself, but with the heavy barrel.

[jackg 7]

the cost to improve the tolerances during manufacture generally is about 8% of the manufacturing cost, that means taking it from a rough bit of work to perfection, it doesn't matter what the materials are, that is the machining costs for whatever the part is, Personally i have had custom rifles, blue printed rifles and ones I have just put together out of bits, and I haven't found a great deal of difference in any of them,especially when i have a remy 700 VSL 243 win that will shoot under an inch at 600 yards, that's an out of the box with a replacement jewel trigger, the biggest things to consider for accuracy is a good quality barrel, free floating the barrel, proper action bedding, trigger pull, and the correct length of stock, after that ammunition, if the gun wont shoot right after that, then you can only blame the Nut behind the butt.

 

Now to dispel a few old fairy tales, you will see all sorts of gun makers or gunsmiths giving out information on tolerances they work to, its mostly just BULL SxxT, these guys are supposed to be doing work that only 2 or 3 places in the Uk can manage,and boy will you pay for it too, they are places like us, or BAE, BAE and the MOD come to us for some aircraft parts, because they cant make them, in fact there are 3 companies in the Uk capable of working to the tolerances that you see in many adverts,

 

If someone has a £250,000 CNC lathe that will work to 2 or 3 microns, then yeah, these tolerances are possible, if they are using an old manual lathe, then no, its fairy tales.

 

I suggest you take a look at what many adverts say, then make your own mind up,

Ive heard some crap but that just about tops it

 

the crap is most of the people here haven't a clue what their guns are capable of, if you new anything about your guns and how they are made they you wouldn't be making silly comments, but if you want to waste your money on blueprinting that's up to you, as it is any gun will shoot better than you can, you look at this or that on a rifle, the bedding, the crown, trigger, bolt lock up surfaces, and the list goes on, you bolt any gun down to immovable object and fire it, then see how it performs, think you would be surprised at the accuracy, one of the ones that surprised me was how much difference or little difference custom guns produce to factory guns, especially the modern ones, especially in the 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm calibres, on the small bore stuff .22LR, try testing a CZ against a BSA martini and an Anschutz, if you carry out the tests right then you will find bugger all difference in any of them, the CZ will shoot the same as all the others, as you might be able to tell I've spent several years with nothing else to do than bugger about with guns, mostly when i was working abroad and had access to a 500 meter in door air conditioned range, the perfect place for rifle and ammo testing..

 

Try it for custom guns and factory guns, you might just learn something, but I doubt it, because most people will comment, but never do the work to really find out what is the reason for why things happen or don't happen, I was going to write a report on it but lost interest, or I should say got a better interest, anyway if you take scopes, mounts, triggers and stocks out of the equation, then no, there is very little difference in a factory to a custom gun, what is different is the quality and way the other parts are added to the basic rifle, most shooters are looking at plastic stocks, well hunters, they will not make a gun more accurate, that's why target rifles come with a metal or wood stock, and basic hunting rifle stock shapes are not even shaped right to give accuracy, that's probably why a lot of people miss those easy shots.

 

But, the real reason people cannot get a factory gun to work as well as a custom gun is, AMMUNITION, you buy a factory gun, and then feed it with cheap mass produced crap, and you expect it to shoot well, you buy a custom gun you take care of it and give it the finest reloads you can make, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM, ammunition be it reloads or factory ammo has variations in it, bigger variations than you realise and ones that have a greatter effect on ballistics and accuracy than being a factory or custom gun can account for.

 

Now learn something, take any box of good to top quality bullet heads, measure them with a digital micrometer, measure them several times round the diameter, I don't care what make they are, there are variations in dimensions, and nearly every bullet is oval, not round, IT IS THE FIRE FORGING OF THOSE OVAL AND ODD SIZED HEADS AS THEY START DOWN THE BARREL THAT CAUSES THE BIGGEST VARIATION IN THE POINT OF IMPACT,PART OF IT IS A VARIATION IN PRESSURE, AND PART OF IT IS FRICTION, AND PART OF IT IS TIME, TIME IN THE BARREL, OTHER THAN THE NUT BEHIND THE BUTT, add to that case internal dimensions, external dimensions etc, yeah you have a problem even if you are a bench rest champion, Now when you have worked out that some people have put a lot of time, mostly work time into trying to get a rifle to shoot better, then you can consider what the problems are with your own shooting, and in the end you might even work out what the factors effecting accuracy are, and they are not always what you think they are.

 

Anyway, a bunch of us tried everything from making our own heads to all the other tricks shooters use to get consistency, still we had problems with bullet heads being mis shaped. the solution we came up with was to make a die for each bullet shape (not easy or cheap) and to reforge the bullet through the die to a consistent shape using a standard pressure, then weighing and sorting them for consistency.

 

Now, such techniques are never going to make much difference to those who reload by dipping the case in a bowl of powder, tapping some out until it looks right then squeezing a head on top. but it might be of some help to the others out there who don't reload like that, and in the end, if you wish to spend several thousand pounds on blueprinting or a custom gun, well that's up to you, and if you cant get the gun to shoot really well, it isn't my wasted money, so why should I care, money cant cure every problem.

 

Oh and the custom weatherby 260 rem cost me £360 to make,

 

 

870 words and you still failed to address the question. You should be on Jackanory.