Reloading advise please 22-250rem

[Night Hunter 109]

Hi,Ive been reloading for a while but always reloaded to just under the recommended max oal which is 2.350" I have recently measured my rifle and found that the actual oal with the bullet touching the lands is 2.480" it has been recomended that I only reduce this by 0.010" to take the bullet head back from the lands but on some websites it recommends reducing by between 0.050" and 0.080" or is it better to start at the recommended max oal of 2.350" any advice would be greatly appreciated,I will be loading 55grain v-max with 35grains of varget to use as a starting point in my new Sako 85 22-250rem

Edited December 30, 2009 by Night Hunter

[dicehorn 38]

Hi,Ive been reloading for a while but always reloaded to just under the recommended max oal which is 2.350" I have recently measured my rifle and found that the actual oal with the bullet touching the lands is 2.480" it has been recomended that I only reduce this by 0.010" to take the bullet head back from the lands but on some websites it recommends reducing by between 0.050" and 0.080" or is it better to start at the recommended max oal of 2.350" any advice would be greatly appreciated,I will be loading 55grain v-max with 35grains of varget to use as a starting point in my new Sako 85 22-250rem

 

Hello NH

 

So. what you are saying the distance from the lands at 2.350 will = 130 thou back?

 

My background: Have been reloading best part of 19 years currently have two 22.250s + 2 other C/F rifles and reload for 5 other people including two other 22.250 users. Regarded as an anorak by my friends as I use top of the range gear.

 

So............let me tell you this, my Rem 700 with bells on shoots sub 1" at 300 yds and currently the bullet is seated back 137 thou from the lands, My other 22.250 is an R93 and I have just bought a varmint barrel for it (dont ask me the price of this new barrel !!) Having shot the barrel in, I can consistently get less than .2 at 100 yds (not taken it out further yet) now playing around with neck tension. Anyway, guess how far back from the land? - 222 thou no less !!

 

Yes we all get told by 'people in the know' what your rifle bullet needs is to be 5, 10 20 thou back from the lands - crap I say - unless you have a match custom barrel which in most cases needs to be either touching or rammed up the rifling. So just ignore them please. Besides, I would not mind betting that if you were to seat it back 10 - 15 thou you would probably find it hard to get the round to fit your magazine - if this happens, then listening to the 'people in the know' do you sling your useless rifle?

 

One important consideration is this with regard to seating depth - when you fire a cartridge the primer ignites the powder to build up pressure to set the bullet on its way, we are trying to get the powder to burn in a uniform manner. A scientific fact is that the less air space in the case there is the more uniform burn you will achieve - so..... leaving the bullet seated well out of the neck nearer to the lands will create more air space, the opposite is achieved by seating the bullet deeper into the case.

 

My seating depth is more or less the same as you have done, but by all means try at 60 thou and come back in 30-40 thou increments.

 

I have no wish to turn you into 'another anorak' but there are a few things to bear in mind when reloading that can have an effect on consistent accuracy - I will tell you some of mine and the reasons - bugger this is turning into a book!!

 

On new brass the first thing I do is segregate them by weight - reason being your cases are just about 100% the same dimensions on the outside, so if a case weighs much more then the rest, it stands to reason that its walls are thicker and therefore there is less volume for powder which will increase pressure and make the POI different from the next case.

 

On new brass I neck tune the cases as, being massed produced the neck wall thickness differs and in order to make each side thickness the same I will cut off the high points.

 

Both my 22.250 chambers are happy to accept the case length at 1.908 so they are trimmed to this.

 

I am a great believer in trying to get my bullet tension on the neck as consistent as possible and that is why I use the Redding competition dies with bushings that give uniform tension. this is born out when using my chronograph on my Rem 700 that gives a + or - 5 fps.

 

Cleaning your rifle properly with good equipement and cleaning agents is also a key to consistent accuracy. If you have a bore snake for your Sako, do your rifle a favour - pop the snake carefully in your dustbin.

 

I know that many will say what a waste of time cos if you are 2" inches out at 200 yds on a fox it is still a dead fox - very very true, its just that some of us try and get the very best a rifle can do and try and get that 2" down to 1/2". I see you are using Varget, no problem with that, been there used it and also H380 and H414 plus two or three others, however if you had no powder at present and asked me I would tell you N150 - is head and shoulders above the rest - dont see N150 in the american reloading books as they hate competition from the europeans.

 

Finally I see you have a Sako - I have the utmost respect for this make, it will serve you well, I load for a friends 6.5 in Sako- a very accurate rifle.

 

Sorry for the waffle - its raining here

[Night Hunter 109]

Thankyou for the info dicehorn,I have loaded some test rounds 0.080" back from the lands and the others are 0.130"back from the lands will be interesting to see the difference in the groupings,Hope to try them tomorrow weather permitting ofcourse,I used to load using N140 but found that it was a very dirty burning powder thats why I decided to try the varget.

[dicehorn 38]

Let us know how you get on.

 

Yes N140 is a different powder to the N150

[jamie g 17]

dicehorn knows his stuff mate. and has given me tips and my reloads are spot on now. i use varget 35.5 grains 50 grain vmax head in norma brass. col to the ogive is 1.950

[Night Hunter 109]

Let us know how you get on.

 

Yes N140 is a different powder to the N150

 

If I have no joy with the varget that I have I will certainly try the N150 next. I just came accross your recipie for it on another thread.

 

You said that you tried H380 how did you find that it performed behind the 55gr heads

Edited December 31, 2009 by Night Hunter

[dicehorn 38]

Let us know how you get on.

 

Yes N140 is a different powder to the N150

 

If I have no joy with the varget that I have I will certainly try the N150 next. I just came accross your recipie for it on another thread.

 

You said that you tried H380 how did you find that it performed behind the 55gr heads

 

The H380 performed quite well but I found it was just not consistent.

 

NH you must always take into account that that any recipe (brass/primer/powder weight etc) given out on this forum or others are good really only for this or that guy's rifle - every manufacturer's tolerances in the making of the barrel are different within certain guidlines - even 2 barrels 5 apart on the same assembly line have differences. So any recipe given should always be regarded as a guide only. Any recipe for powder weight given should be checked out against your reloading manual and if high, then start say 5% below and work up (for a 22.250) in 1/2 grain increments.

 

Remember, it matters not a tinkers cuss whether your bullet travels at 3500 or 3900 fps - its not how fast it gets there, but where it gets when it gets there.

 

You will realize (when reloading takes over your life !!) the powder and its weight come second to how you prepare the case before the powder goes in.

 

I have the small booklet 'The complete Reloading Manual for the 22.250Rem' if you want to borrow it, send me your address via email and I will get it sent off to you - tis a pity you dont live around the corner from me!

 

Peter

[Night Hunter 109]

Let us know how you get on.

 

Yes N140 is a different powder to the N150

 

If I have no joy with the varget that I have I will certainly try the N150 next. I just came accross your recipie for it on another thread.

 

You said that you tried H380 how did you find that it performed behind the 55gr heads

 

The H380 performed quite well but I found it was just not consistent.

 

NH you must always take into account that that any recipe (brass/primer/powder weight etc) given out on this forum or others are good really only for this or that guy's rifle - every manufacturer's tolerances in the making of the barrel are different within certain guidlines - even 2 barrels 5 apart on the same assembly line have differences. So any recipe given should always be regarded as a guide only. Any recipe for powder weight given should be checked out against your reloading manual and if high, then start say 5% below and work up (for a 22.250) in 1/2 grain increments.

 

Remember, it matters not a tinkers cuss whether your bullet travels at 3500 or 3900 fps - its not how fast it gets there, but where it gets when it gets there.

 

You will realize (when reloading takes over your life !!) the powder and its weight come second to how you prepare the case before the powder goes in.

 

I have the small booklet 'The complete Reloading Manual for the 22.250Rem' if you want to borrow it, send me your address via email and I will get it sent off to you - tis a pity you dont live around the corner from me!

 

Peter

 

cheers peter, i have taken on board all that you have said as regards case prep the only thing that i can not do at this time is to tune the case neck as i do not have the macine for this but i look to purchase one soon ,i have however trimmed all of the cases so that they are the same length using the manual trimmer and all have been deburred,primer ports cleaned and then tumbled and seperated into batches of simmilar weight,i am going to buy a book called the modern reloader by richard lee,i have just been online and bought the booklet that you mentioned as i know what its like when you need something and you have lent it out but thankyou very much for the offer,and my wife has already been warned that i will be spending lots of time in the shed and on the target working up different loads as i intend to use 50gr or 52gr and 55gr bullets in my sako,i think ive got the reloader bug...lol

Edited December 31, 2009 by Night Hunter

[dicehorn 38]

 

cheers peter, i have taken on board all that you have said as regards case prep the only thing that i can not do at this time is to tune the case neck as i do not have the macine for this but i look to purchase one soon ,i have however trimmed all of the cases so that they are the same length using the manual trimmer and all have been deburred,primer ports cleaned and then tumbled and seperated into batches of simmilar weight,i am going to buy a book called the modern reloader by richard lee,i have just been online and bought the booklet that you mentioned as i know what its like when you need something and you have lent it out but thankyou very much for the offer,and my wife has already been warned that i will be spending lots of time in the shed and on the target working up different loads as i intend to use 50gr or 52gr and 55gr bullets in my sako,i think ive got the reloader bug...lol

 

Whilst I dont have the book, many reloaders say that the 'ABC of Reloading' is the best book out there.

 

Can I recommend you to this site

 

http://ammosmith.com/

 

There are many instructional vids on U Tube - some are a little worrying, however the above site by Ammosmith has loads of info/vids on reloading - many quite technical but at least it gives you an understanding to the question - why?

 

See you are married - your hobby can co exist with a wife - difficult at times, when my wife complains I tell her I would rather be gazing at primer pocket holes than looking at holes on porn channels - seems to reassure her somehow!!

Edited December 31, 2009 by dicehorn

[Night Hunter 109]

 

cheers peter, i have taken on board all that you have said as regards case prep the only thing that i can not do at this time is to tune the case neck as i do not have the macine for this but i look to purchase one soon ,i have however trimmed all of the cases so that they are the same length using the manual trimmer and all have been deburred,primer ports cleaned and then tumbled and seperated into batches of simmilar weight,i am going to buy a book called the modern reloader by richard lee,i have just been online and bought the booklet that you mentioned as i know what its like when you need something and you have lent it out but thankyou very much for the offer,and my wife has already been warned that i will be spending lots of time in the shed and on the target working up different loads as i intend to use 50gr or 52gr and 55gr bullets in my sako,i think ive got the reloader bug...lol

 

Whilst I dont have the book, many reloaders say that the 'ABC of Reloading' is the best book out there.

 

Can I recommend you to this site

 

http://ammosmith.com/

 

There are many instructional vids on U Tube - some are a little worrying, however the above site by Ammosmith has loads of info/vids on reloading - many quite technical but at least it gives you an understanding to the question - why?

 

See you are married - your hobby can co exist with a wife - difficult at times, when my wife complains I tell her I would rather be gazing at primer pocket holes than looking at holes on porn channels - seems to reassure her somehow!!

 

I will buy the abc of reloading instead of the book by richard lee then and I will definately take a look at the website you gave me.

 

I was at the targrt today and discovered that with the 35grain load of varget behind the 55 gr v-max my rifle prefers them at 0.130" back from the lands(2x 1.5" 3 shot groups)rather than0.080" back from the lands (4" 3 shot group).

 

But to be honest the rifle did not seem to like the 35gr load going by the grouping so back to the shed starting at 33 grain and going up .5gr incriments up to about 36.5gr.Should I clean my barrell between different loads when test firing and should I be using 3 or 5 shot test at 100yds.

[dicehorn 38]

 

I will buy the abc of reloading instead of the book by richard lee then and I will definately take a look at the website you gave me.

 

I was at the targrt today and discovered that with the 35grain load of varget behind the 55 gr v-max my rifle prefers them at 0.130" back from the lands(2x 1.5" 3 shot groups)rather than0.080" back from the lands (4" 3 shot group).

 

But to be honest the rifle did not seem to like the 35gr load going by the grouping so back to the shed starting at 33 grain and going up .5gr incriments up to about 36.5gr.Should I clean my barrell between different loads when test firing and should I be using 3 or 5 shot test at 100yds.

 

 

Hi Re 130 thou back. I am assuming your 1.5" group was a round affair - as opposed to vertical/horizontal stringing?

 

Assuming you have measured where your lands is correctly (with an AOL guage) and with the bullet seated at 130 thou back I assume that the bullet head still has about 100 thou more travel before it touches to ogive? - if so you could afford to seat the bullet perhaps another 50 thou in the case giving you 180 thou back from the lands. (my bullet head has approx 40 thou left before it touches the ogive) 35 gr would give you a little over 3600 fps which is about right for a 55gr bullet head.

 

If you plan to increase your powder weight please make sure you inspect your cases after firing (the neck and the primer) for signs of over pressure.

 

Clean your barrel thoroughly - it should be fine then for 25 shots or so. I usually shoot groups of 5 at a target as I feel 3 shots may not give you the total picture of what that batch will or will not do.

 

What are you using to shoot off? No intention of teaching granny to suck eggs but have you tried shooting with both eyes open and keeping your scope magnification to a minimum (if you use variable glass)?

 

As previously stated, I have a new barrel for my R93 and (like you) am developing a load for it. Went out today (not the best conditions - very cold) and put a target up at 147 yds - thought it was 150 yds until I ranged it. Whilst the results are not spectacular, I feel with a bit more tweaking I am almost there.

 

 

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq101/wyndog/LoaddevelopmentR93.jpg

 

Just editing to say that the 22.250 is a fast load no matter what weight of powder in the case, so......when shooting groups make sure you give the barrel at least 2 mins to cool down before taking the next shot. Also suggest each round is put into the magazine on its own - dont fill the mag up when load developing.

 

Happy New Year to you

Edited January 1, 2010 by dicehorn

[Night Hunter 109]

 

I will buy the abc of reloading instead of the book by richard lee then and I will definately take a look at the website you gave me.

 

I was at the targrt today and discovered that with the 35grain load of varget behind the 55 gr v-max my rifle prefers them at 0.130" back from the lands(2x 1.5" 3 shot groups)rather than0.080" back from the lands (4" 3 shot group).

 

But to be honest the rifle did not seem to like the 35gr load going by the grouping so back to the shed starting at 33 grain and going up .5gr incriments up to about 36.5gr.Should I clean my barrell between different loads when test firing and should I be using 3 or 5 shot test at 100yds.

 

 

Hi Re 130 thou back. I am assuming your 1.5" group was a round affair - as opposed to vertical/horizontal stringing?

 

Assuming you have measured where your lands is correctly (with an AOL guage) and with the bullet seated at 130 thou back I assume that the bullet head still has about 100 thou more travel before it touches to ogive? - if so you could afford to seat the bullet perhaps another 50 thou in the case giving you 180 thou back from the lands. (my bullet head has approx 40 thou left before it touches the ogive) 35 gr would give you a little over 3600 fps which is about right for a 55gr bullet head.

 

If you plan to increase your powder weight please make sure you inspect your cases after firing (the neck and the primer) for signs of over pressure.

 

Clean your barrel thoroughly - it should be fine then for 25 shots or so. I usually shoot groups of 5 at a target as I feel 3 shots may not give you the total picture of what that batch will or will not do.

 

What are you using to shoot off? No intention of teaching granny to suck eggs but have you tried shooting with both eyes open and keeping your scope magnification to a minimum (if you use variable glass)?

 

As previously stated, I have a new barrel for my R93 and (like you) am developing a load for it. Went out today (not the best conditions - very cold) and put a target up at 147 yds - thought it was 150 yds until I ranged it. Whilst the results are not spectacular, I feel with a bit more tweaking I am almost there.

 

 

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq101/wyndog/LoaddevelopmentR93.jpg

 

Just editing to say that the 22.250 is a fast load no matter what weight of powder in the case, so......when shooting groups make sure you give the barrel at least 2 mins to cool down before taking the next shot. Also suggest each round is put into the magazine on its own - dont fill the mag up when load developing.

 

Happy New Year to you

 

Hi peter firstly I would like to wish you a very happy new year and thank you for your help and advice which I am finding invaluable and very informative,would you suggest that I stick with the 35gr load first of all and try seating the bullet head back another 50 thou before trying the different loads of powder,the estimated 1.5"groups were three shot the first from clean cold barrel had two shots almost vertical and measurd at 1.180" apart and I called the third as a pulled shot the second grouping was mesured at 1.250" also but sort of round as you described,but I did not allow 2 mins between shots (seems i still have alot to learn) but I did walk out to the target and back between the two groupings.

I am shooting from bipod in prone position fixed magnification scope,never tried shooting rifle with both eyes open does this have benifits ?

 

[dicehorn 38]

 

Hi peter firstly I would like to wish you a very happy new year and thank you for your help and advice which I am finding invaluable and very informative,would you suggest that I stick with the 35gr load first of all and try seating the bullet head back another 50 thou before trying the different loads of powder,the estimated 1.5"groups were three shot the first from clean cold barrel had two shots almost vertical and measurd at 1.180" apart and I called the third as a pulled shot the second grouping was mesured at 1.250" also but sort of round as you described,but I did not allow 2 mins between shots (seems i still have alot to learn) but I did walk out to the target and back between the two groupings.

I am shooting from bipod in prone position fixed magnification scope,never tried shooting rifle with both eyes open does this have benifits ?

 

 

 

Hi

 

Looking at the target on the left - can I assume you are left handed?? To be honest I cannot understand why you are having quite such a large grouping - so a couple of questions, You are shooting off a bipod - no problem there, but are you just putting the butt to your shoulder? If so, it may enhance your shooting whilst developing loads to have some sort of firm bag for the butt to sit on (if you do, just remove the rear stud whilst developing the load as this can have an effect of pivoting the butt when it should be firmly down on the bag/sack. Have you checked your barrel clearance with the stock whilst it is up on the bipod - you should be able to slide a piece of A4 paper doubled right up the barrel to the breech.

 

Once again not trying to treat you like a numpty, but have you made a 100% check on your new rifle that the screws attaching the barrel to the stock are tight, as well of course that your scope is well secure? Are you shooting with a mod if so, remove it - fire 4 shots at a target with your chosen load then mod back on and fire 4 more IDENTICAL rounds - that will answer any question about the mod being a problem- if need be come into say 70 yards to make it all a little more easier for you.

 

I would stick with 35gr for the time being, as quite honestly it should get you (at worst) sub 1" at 100yds or thereabouts

 

You asked about both eyes open - let me tell you right away I am not a bench rest shooter - I have never even been on a proper range, I am a deer stalker and fox shooter - having said that, we can all learn from bench rest shooters whether it is attention to detail in reloading or shooting with both eyes open. Now I hope I can type this so as to make sense. One thing we all try to avoid happening to us is blinking when letting off the bullet or worse still developing the dreaded flinch. Now, if you close (if you happen to be a right hand shooter) your left eye when looking down the scope with your right eye, you will notice that your right eye will marginally start to close in sympathy with the left, so you end up almost poised to blink anyway - it is then difficult to shoot what I call 'wide eyed' with one closed. However, if both eyes are open you can adopt the wide eye position quite easily and your brain quickly gets your right eye to focus down the scope ( I am a right hand shooter but my left eye is totally dominant so it takes me a while to get the brain to look through the right eye). Try it - it takes a bit of doing but once mastered it will become first instinct to you - very much the same as discipling yourself when on the target to take several deep breathes, then one final deep breath come onto target with the crosshairs, let half the air out of your lungs hold still and squeeze the trigger - all bench rest stuff!!

 

Don't give up on me - your rifle is better than you it is capable of super accuracy ............eventually !!

 

I showed you a photo yesterday of the rifle at 147 yds. Well I went out today at 100 yds very confident that my latest batch of 5 would be the boys to make me smile - I was right - a 5 shot group measured at .126" (about 1/8" centre to centre) For me (who will collect his pension this year - Jesus Christ - how time flies when you are enjoying yourself!!) it prooves what I say about not needing to be 10 thou off the lands as most will tell you.

 

Here is the scan of the target - the red bull measures 8 mm (.314") I tend to shoot at small bulls because ( for me) it make me concentrate that little bit more. I also draw in the 4 lines when I feel I am about there with a developed load and make sure the cross hairs line up with these marks each time so I cant blame canting the rifle differently with each shot. Keep me posted with your progress.

 

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq101/wyndog/100yardR9322250.jpg

 

Peter

[Night Hunter 109]

Hi Peter

 

when I had my remington 700 I shot off my left shoulder (very well)I found this comfortable as the rifle was ambidextrous,I then bought a Tikka T3 which I also shot off the left but could not settle with it the rifle had cheek pieces etc added for comfort but I could not seem to settle with it and then I was told by a gunsmith that the barrel had sulpher inclusions so I decided that a new rifle would sort everything out.When I was looking for another rifle it was discovered that I was right eye dominant(I had been shooting for eight years off my left) therefore I was advised that as I am also right handed I should shoot off my right shoulder using my dominant eye as this would make rifle choice easier and I realy wanted the sako,but sometimes it still feels awkward.

 

I have just ordered a rear benchrest sandbag to use whilst load testing as I was just holding on to the sling and using my fist as a rest and also to hold the rifle into my shoulder.

 

The folded A4 can be slid back to the breach whilst the rifle is resting on the bipod with the moderator is fitted so clearances seems fine,and everything is tight and scope is secure.I must add that the rifle was only zeroed enough to get the groupings on paper and that once I can achieve a satisfactory group I will be able to zero to the point of aim.

 

I will load more 35 gr tommorrow but should I increase the distance to the lands or just load them to 130thou back until I have tested the rifle with and without the moderator(I have never used the rifle without the moderator fitted)? At present I am using once fired fully formed Norma brass I was told that once the cases have been fire formed I should just neck size and this alone will make my loads more accurate.

 

I,like yourself hunt deer and fox but until I can feel comfortable with the accuracy of my rifle,load and my shooting with the new rifle I have opted for punching paper,(one of my friends told me that I was expecting too much from a sporting rifle but I disagree I refuse to risk anything other than a clean kill) I will try shooting with both eyes open on my next visit to the target,I already do the breathing part.

 

I have no intention on giving up on you,I have learned so much from you in the last few days and I bet others on the forum have picked up a few top tips too and I hope that eventually I can achieve something even close to the sort of groupings that you are getting.

 

Thanks again.

 

Tam

Edited January 1, 2010 by Night Hunter

[dicehorn 38]

I will load more 35 gr tommorrow but should I increase the distance to the lands or just load them to 130thou back until I have tested the rifle with and without the moderator(I have never used the rifle without the moderator fitted)? At present I am using once fired fully formed Norma brass I was told that once the cases have been fire formed I should just neck size and this alone will make my loads more accurate. Just for now, I would keep it to 130 thou back until you have shot mod on mod off. Norma brass is fine. With regards to neck sizing, the answer to that is yes, but the yes relates in the main to prolonging your case life. The jury (for me and perhaps a few others) is out on the accuracy stakes. Yes very much so on custom barrels with tight chambers, but with massed produced (sometimes sloppy chambers) barrels I personally dont think fired formed cases improve accuracy.

 

I,like yourself hunt deer and fox but until I can feel comfortable with the accuracy of my rifle,load and my shooting with the new rifle I have opted for punching paper,(one of my friends a factory ammo only chap I would guess - when you get your 22.250 below .5 MOA he will ask you to reload for him.told me that I was expecting too much from a sporting rifle but I disagree I refuse to risk anything other than a clean kill) I will try shooting with both eyes open on my next visit to the target,I already do the breathing part.

 

I have no intention on giving up on you,I have learned so much from you in the last few days and I bet others on the forum have picked up a few top tips too and I hope that eventually I can achieve something even close to the sort of groupings that you are getting.

 

Thanks again.

 

Tam

 

Sorry late in replying as above - been off shooting pheasant with my syndicate. I expect you have already done the mod test by now?

 

Peter