Problem with polecat

[doddsy1970 9]

1. Road kill, unless it is minutes old can develop high levels of bacteria especially e-coli and botulism (both of which are lethal to ferrets).

 

Quite true, except it would take more than a few minutes for it to build up. Road kill is far from ideal however; freshly killed (hunted/shot) bunnies, pigeons, crows etc are much better.

 

In hot weather this can be as quick as 30 minutes or less.

 

Must have had an enormous amount of bacteria when live, then. Bacteria only multiply every 20 minutes (by mitosis), so the numbers would "only" double in that time. That's a very small increase in bacterial terms. The live animal would have to have already been crawling in toxic bacterium to spawn a deadly amount inside 30 minutes (time for one set of mitosis) even under high heat and other conducive conditions.

 

2. A ferret is a domesticated animal not a wild one and just like the dog has had its diet adapted. Do all these people shouting about you should be feeding your ferret this you should be feeding it that feed their dogs on road kill... I think not.

 

Oh, here we go lol Don't work for a pet food company do you? If not, with respect, maybe you ought to do a little more reading. Before you get your hackles up (not intending to insult you), you might want to read the Ox Hearts thread in Health & Nutrition.

 

I'd LOVE for you to tell me HOW exactly a dog and a ferret has "adapted" its diet. Show me the mechanism. Show me the physiological changes resulting FROM that mechanism. Please do provide some evidence for your statement. Can't wait to see it. As for feeding our dogs "road kill", hell yeah they get whole carcases; rabbits, squirrel, pig, fish, lamb, pigeon etc - and when I have no carcases on hand they get raw meaty bones.

 

3. Feeding dry ferret food (not dog or cat biscuits which do not have the right nutritional balance) does not produce sloppy poo they are as firm as any fed on meat if not firmer.

 

We agree on something then! Dog and cat biscuits do not have the right nutritional balance. Not for ferrets, and certainly not for dogs or cats.

 

I have fed my ferrets on dry food for the last 10 years and have never had a problem related to the fact that their diet is incorrect. People should stop trying to blame their diet for their ferret ailments and start looking at other reasons, like dirty water bottles, dirty hutches and general bad husbandry!!!

 

Are you sure? How can you know? What problems HAVE you had with dogs and ferrets? As for dirty water bottles, dirty hutches and bad husbandry - amen to that! I've fed raw for donkey's years (nature has fed raw for millions of years) and I'VE never had a problem either. No periodontal disease, no skin conditions, no autoimmune disorders, no excessive shedding, no stomach/digestive complaints, no hyperactivity so commonly seen in kibble fed dogs/ferrets, the list is long.

 

Anyway, I need to get off to school to pick the eldest up from drama club. I am looking forward to seeing your scientific evidence showing that dogs and ferrets have changed in nutrition/dietary requirements, including the alteration of their physiological and biochemical structures necessitating this shift. Plenty of scientific references, please. Without those it's all talk.

 

Cheers mate,

 

Lee

 

 

Right where shall i start ??? Mitosis as you rightly say is the splitting and growth in numbers of cells and in this case bacteria but what you don't say is that for every 10*c this rate doubles. Secondly where in my statement did I say that ferrets or dogs in that matter have adapted their diets... I did not. I said that they have had their diets adapted by this I mean in the way of having dry foods/ complete foods created (please read correctly before your criticise).

Where do you get your facts that dry food causes periodontal disease, skin conditions, autoimmune disorders, excessive shedding, stomach/digestive complaints, hyperactivity ???

Hyperactivity is an effect of non used energy, which is gained from protein which must mean the animals are not being stimulated enough both physically and mentally.

As for asking how do i not know if my ferrets have suffered from any illness. I can tell you that they are checked and handled, cleaned and fed every single day and that if one has in the past shown signs of illness they are taken straight to the vets!! Being with them everyday you notice little changes in their behaviour and having 13 of them that is a couple of hours a day minimum with me in their court so i think that qualifies me in knowing whether they are suffering from anything don't you?????

[Rainmaker 7]

Right where shall i start ??? Mitosis as you rightly say is the splitting and growth in numbers of cells and in this case bacteria but what you don't say is that for every 10*c this rate doubles. Secondly where in my statement did I say that ferrets or dogs in that matter have adapted their diets... I did not. I said that they have had their diets adapted by this I mean in the way of having dry foods/ complete foods created (please read correctly before your criticise).

Where do you get your facts that dry food causes periodontal disease, skin conditions, autoimmune disorders, excessive shedding, stomach/digestive complaints, hyperactivity ???

Hyperactivity is an effect of non used energy, which is gained from protein which must mean the animals are not being stimulated enough both physically and mentally.

As for asking how do i not know if my ferrets have suffered from any illness. I can tell you that they are checked and handled, cleaned and fed every single day and that if one has in the past shown signs of illness they are taken straight to the vets!! Being with them everyday you notice little changes in their behaviour and having 13 of them that is a couple of hours a day minimum with me in their court so i think that qualifies me in knowing whether they are suffering from anything don't you?????

 

Good stuff! Now it's getting interesting Mitosis may well double per 10 degree increase in ambient temperature. Thing is (and this is imho the relevant part) how many 10 degree Celsius increases are you going to find in the UK? We're lucky if the ambient temperature is over a single 10 degrees full stop, never mind an extra 10, and another and so on which would give bacteria a chance to multiply more rapidly LOL So I wouldn't be too worried about huge multiplication in that case.

 

As I stated in the original post, I personally have used road kill only very rarely - freshly killed for the purpose prey is much more suitable. Just making an observation is all

 

You did indeed state that the dog and ferret had had its diet adapted, and I did read you correctly. However, you wrote it in the context of "a ferret is a domesticated animal not a wild one"; this implied (to my reading of it anyway) that somehow wild ferrets/polecats or wolves/dogs were therefore somehow different in their makeup. Otherwise why introduce this fact in relation to the adapted diet? Just because man changed the diet, doesn't mean it was the correct course of action surely. In light of that fact, I saw only one way to take it - should I have misunderstood you I apologise, please do clarify.

 

As for the facts about periodontal disease and commercial food. The pet food manufacturers themselves publicise this information! Has it come to your attention yet (via tv ads maybe) that it is Pet Smile Month, sponsored by Pedigree et al.? Their own figures state that at least 85% of dogs over the age of 3 years suffer periodontal disease at a significant level requiring treatment. Check out the adverts for DentaStix, or the www.petsmile.com (Pedigree's site) page for confirmation of this.

 

This applies to cats and ferrets also. The thing is (and this is what I meant by are you sure your animals were ok) periodontal disease - which is clearly affecting almost 9 out of every 10 dogs, cats and ferrets fed a commercial diet - is often sub-clinical in its presentation. Even many vets have trouble diagnosing it; hence the new branch of specialist veterinary dentistry. It was in no way intended as a reflection of your husbandry skills!

 

Research also done by Penman, S and Emily, P (1993) also reached the same conclusion about the >85% disease presence level. If even the pet food manufacturers are willing to admit this openly (and quite bizarrely and imho disgracefully then attempt to pedal further products to attempt to 'fix' the damage their product does in the first place), imagine what they DON'T want you to know.

 

There is a book published by Dr Tom Lonsdale (2001) which was peer reviewed publicly and contains a MASSIVE wealth of references to studies, academic and scientific trials, articles etc showing clearly the link between processed foods and the illnesses I listed, and more. Please do go to www.rawmeatybones.com and download the book for free, to see for yourself. It's a good read.

 

The evidence is out there, in mountainous proportions. As I said my friend, the pet food manufacturers even openly admit their products cause harm. Celebrity vet Dr Scott Miller (2006) even admits on Pedigree's website that their product causes gum disease and periodontal disease. He follows this up with an answer stating that raw meaty bones and carcases in the diet (as opposed to kibble and canned) PREVENT periodontal disease, as they clean teeth.

 

This from a man paid by a pet food manufacturer to ADVERTISE their product! If that's their advertising, imagine what the hidden away research is showing. Actually, no need to imagine, Dr Lonsdale's book (2001) provides many journal articles, FOIs, etc they'd rather you didn't see.

 

Anyway I could go on. No doubt this will continue once you've had a chance to flick through Dr Lonsdale's book etc, which I wholeheartedly recommend. Not because I believe you need educating, but rather that I think you will thoroughly enjoy it!

 

I look forward to speaking with you more on this topic. And for the record I apologise if my tone appeared accusatory or in any way confrontational. As per above, it was a reflection of the great difficulty (oftentimes) in diagnosing this disease (and its subsequent infection and failure of the heart, kidneys, liver etc) not your husbandry skills! :thumbs-up:

 

All the best,

 

Lee

 

References

 

Lonsdale, T (2001) Raw Meaty Bones; Promote Health, Rivetco PL, Australia - available free at www.rawmeatybones.com

 

Miller, S (2006) Web page: "Ask Vet, Dr Scott Miller", Waltham, http://www.uk.pedigree.com/products/oralCare_AskVet.asp Accessed: 15 September 2006

 

Penman, S and Emily, P (1991) Scaling, Polishing and Dental Home Care, Waltham International Focus, 1:3 pp 2-8

 

 

[Edited simply to add "References" header for clarity]

Edited September 15, 2006 by RainmakerKennels

[Kay 3,709]

Ditch I feed the both of them on ferret nuggets that I get from the pet store, Dry food thats what it is like little hard chunks in the shape of triangles

 

Thanks Chay fingers crossed mate

 

Is it ferret food your feeding or cat biscuits ?

[Ron Weasley 83]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through this thread. It's good to see some proper debate, rather than the usual slanging match that results from disagreements (see the 'tossers' thread in the Terrier forum!).

 

RainmakerKennels: you make some excellent points, and I liked reading your posts for a few reasons. Firstly, they were very interesting, but secondly, they were well written, and therefore easy to read. No offence intended to any other users of this forum, but that makes something of a change!

 

Like Frank said, I think that it is definitely a case of each to their own. Balance definitely is important.

 

Personally, I feed carcass as much as possible, and occasionally, this does include road kill from time to time.

[doddsy1970 9]

Good stuff! Now it's getting interesting Mitosis may well double per 10 degree increase in ambient temperature. Thing is (and this is imho the relevant part) how many 10 degree Celsius increases are you going to find in the UK? We're lucky if the ambient temperature is over a single 10 degrees full stop, never mind an extra 10, and another and so on which would give bacteria a chance to multiply more rapidly LOL So I wouldn't be too worried about huge multiplication in that case.

 

As I stated in the original post, I personally have used road kill only very rarely - freshly killed for the purpose prey is much more suitable. Just making an observation is all

 

You did indeed state that the dog and ferret had had its diet adapted, and I did read you correctly. However, you wrote it in the context of "a ferret is a domesticated animal not a wild one"; this implied (to my reading of it anyway) that somehow wild ferrets/polecats or wolves/dogs were therefore somehow different in their makeup. Otherwise why introduce this fact in relation to the adapted diet? Just because man changed the diet, doesn't mean it was the correct course of action surely. In light of that fact, I saw only one way to take it - should I have misunderstood you I apologise, please do clarify.

 

As for the facts about periodontal disease and commercial food. The pet food manufacturers themselves publicise this information! Has it come to your attention yet (via tv ads maybe) that it is Pet Smile Month, sponsored by Pedigree et al.? Their own figures state that at least 85% of dogs over the age of 3 years suffer periodontal disease at a significant level requiring treatment. Check out the adverts for DentaStix, or the www.petsmile.com (Pedigree's site) page for confirmation of this.

 

This applies to cats and ferrets also. The thing is (and this is what I meant by are you sure your animals were ok) periodontal disease - which is clearly affecting almost 9 out of every 10 dogs, cats and ferrets fed a commercial diet - is often sub-clinical in its presentation. Even many vets have trouble diagnosing it; hence the new branch of specialist veterinary dentistry. It was in no way intended as a reflection of your husbandry skills!

 

Research also done by Penman, S and Emily, P (1993) also reached the same conclusion about the >85% disease presence level. If even the pet food manufacturers are willing to admit this openly (and quite bizarrely and imho disgracefully then attempt to pedal further products to attempt to 'fix' the damage their product does in the first place), imagine what they DON'T want you to know.

 

There is a book published by Dr Tom Lonsdale (2001) which was peer reviewed publicly and contains a MASSIVE wealth of references to studies, academic and scientific trials, articles etc showing clearly the link between processed foods and the illnesses I listed, and more. Please do go to www.rawmeatybones.com and download the book for free, to see for yourself. It's a good read.

 

The evidence is out there, in mountainous proportions. As I said my friend, the pet food manufacturers even openly admit their products cause harm. Celebrity vet Dr Scott Miller (2006) even admits on Pedigree's website that their product causes gum disease and periodontal disease. He follows this up with an answer stating that raw meaty bones and carcases in the diet (as opposed to kibble and canned) PREVENT periodontal disease, as they clean teeth.

 

This from a man paid by a pet food manufacturer to ADVERTISE their product! If that's their advertising, imagine what the hidden away research is showing. Actually, no need to imagine, Dr Lonsdale's book (2001) provides many journal articles, FOIs, etc they'd rather you didn't see.

 

Anyway I could go on. No doubt this will continue once you've had a chance to flick through Dr Lonsdale's book etc, which I wholeheartedly recommend. Not because I believe you need educating, but rather that I think you will thoroughly enjoy it!

 

I look forward to speaking with you more on this topic. And for the record I apologise if my tone appeared accusatory or in any way confrontational. As per above, it was a reflection of the great difficulty (oftentimes) in diagnosing this disease (and its subsequent infection and failure of the heart, kidneys, liver etc) not your husbandry skills! :thumbs-up:

 

All the best,

 

Lee

 

References

 

Lonsdale, T (2001) Raw Meaty Bones; Promote Health, Rivetco PL, Australia - available free at www.rawmeatybones.com

 

Miller, S (2006) Web page: "Ask Vet, Dr Scott Miller", Waltham, http://www.uk.pedigree.com/products/oralCare_AskVet.asp Accessed: 15 September 2006

 

Penman, S and Emily, P (1991) Scaling, Polishing and Dental Home Care, Waltham International Focus, 1:3 pp 2-8

 

 

[Edited simply to add "References" header for clarity]

 

Before i start my reply may I applaud you. Your views and opinions have great informational base and you personally seem to know your subjects and I have enjoyed being involved in this post more than any other .I have read part of Dr Lonsdales views and analysis online and who am I to argue or debate his findings. I do do a lot of reading and the information that you have given me will provide a lot more.

After reading your last post and divulging the information, I have come to the conclusion that it relates to animals being fed on a soft food diet ie: canned food. As you are aware I feed my ferrets on a complete ferret food, and as i have said, this I believe is nutritionally balanced but (and this is going to seem like I'm back tracking slightly because i neglected to put this in my original post) I do let the ferrets have the skins of the of the rabbits after i have prepared them. They all have bright eyes, excellent coats and good teeth. Is this down to the ferret food or the fur or a combination of both?

I do believe though that a lot of ferret illnesses do come from bad diets amongst other things but i do disagree that complete ferret foods are inadequate and can be classed a bad diet.

[Rainmaker 7]

Hi again Doddsy

 

Great that you're enjoying the debate, as Ron said it's nice to actually HAVE an informed even handed debate, without having to resort to the usual crap. Fair play mate

 

Glad that you're adding rabbit skins etc into their diet, why not chuck them the whole thing from time to time? I won't go into further discussion simply because I believe at this point we'd be raking over old ground and we have come to an amicable position.

 

I hear what you're saying about the canned foods (they're the worst!), though just fyi (not starting anything) just do be aware that the kibble you talk of is just as bad for teeth and oral health. Otherwise, manufacturers wouldn't be trying to sell you DentaStix etc on top of the kibble, with a great big sticker saying "85% of dogs/cats/ferrets fed kibble have periodontal disease - buy these chews to help them a bit".

 

I've made my point, enjoyed your responses enormously, and hope it won't be the last time we have a verbal to-and-fro

All the best mate,

 

Lee

[Ron Weasley 83]

Excellent, good stuff. I've learnt a lot from this thread, from Doddsy and RainmakerKennels. So thanks both.

 

More discussion of this nature is what's required on this forum I think!

[Guest Erin go bragh]

Alright he doesn't seem to be getting any better but he is eating he has lost ALOT of weight in these past few days ill need to bring him to the vet hes deffinitley not himself usually as soon as i open the hutch door the to of them used to just jump out but now he just comes out and gets a drink outta his other dish and goes back in and lies down but the albino hes still jumpin diggin climbin and playing about im going to see about taking him to the vet tomorrow

 

I had the two of them on dry food people but now i feed them meat i was told to get cuttings of beef for them so theyv been eating that this passed few days but i have got some bread and milk in now for him im deff not buyin that dry food again

[Guest Frank]

Ferrets seem to react different to complete food, some do great on it, others dont, so if they do good, go ahead, feed it, but if they have problems, stop it and go back to the old reliable, flesh & whole carcasess.

 

I have stoped feeding complete ferret food, as mine did not do well on it and sufferd skin problems ect, plus it made them hyper active.

 

Now feed, rabbit, birds, when i can get some, chickhen and if i have ran out of them, dog meat that comes in a big sausage shape, they seem to love it and gets them by when carcass food is not available.

 

Frank.

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Frank; Those 'sausages' are generically known as " Chubb Meat ". Nearest thing to whole carcasses ye can buy in a shop. Examine some closely and ye'll see the fur and feather fibre all minced up in there. Just don't Ever let it get half frozen - like keeping it in a shed or something - and then feed it. Happened to me and I lost two to Botulism

 

Side story here: Young lad I used to know fed his on that. Kept it in the fridge, on a plate. Had a mate stopping one time and one day this mate mentioned that he'd got hungry the night before and so had nicked a little of that " Salami " in the fridge for a sandwich! Said it was nice and asked where they got it!!! :sick:

[Guest Frank]

:sick: Bet he felt funny when he was told what it was.

 

Yes, they seem to do well on it, great scats off them ect, when i feed it to them as as substitute.

 

They love the chickhen flavoure.

I keep it in a fridge and dont freez it, is this OK?

 

Frank.

[SeanTheHawker 0]

gary try and stay away from the bread a milk, even the beef has very little nutrition, whole carcases with liver kidney and muscle meat is best, as ive said before, ive loads here if you want

[Guest Ditch_Shitter]

Frank, I too found Chicken the best one. It may seem disgusting to us - or friends staying over night! - but they simply seem to chuck ..... well, god knows what in there. But, as ye see, it does provide plenty of roughage!

 

Yeppers. Pop the stuff in the fridge once it's been opened. Otherwise, just store the tubes at cool room temprature. It's litural freezing which makes it dangerous.

[Guest Frank]

Cheers DS.

 

Great substitute for them.

 

Frank.

[bullsmilk 2]

i always feed mine on whole rabbit just gutted i leave in the heart lungs kidnys ect.they love it straight in the cavity.lol they realy seem to like eating the brain that seems wierd