Best dry puppy food?

[driller killer 33]

Hello,

I have a 12wk old lurcher pup, who is fed the raw meaty bone diet plus dry complete food that is allways down and she can eat when she wants.

What would be the best type of dry puppy food to feed her, she is having 'Beta' (i think its called) but as she goes through this very slowly due to the meat as a better option i want to get the best possible complete for her. Any ideas???

Any help would be very appretiated.

Cheers

Neil

[taffyboi 19]

Hello,

I have a 12wk old lurcher pup, who is fed the raw meaty bone diet plus dry complete food that is allways down and she can eat when she wants.

What would be the best type of dry puppy food to feed her, she is having 'Beta' (i think its called) but as she goes through this very slowly due to the meat as a better option i want to get the best possible complete for her. Any ideas???

Any help would be very appretiated.

Cheers

Neil

 

well i got a pup and i was feeding iams puppy food from 6weeks old first time i used it and hes a week away from being 5 months old and the fu*king thing is 22 half tts at the mo and this is a bull x pup aswell lol

[skycat 6,174]

Firstly I would never leave any food down all the time: that can actually encourage a dog to pick a bit at a time, which is not what dogs were intended to do. Dogs have evolved to eat a stomach full then digest it: constant grazing is not good for them. Also, when the dog is an adult and you want to work it, you need to work it on an empty stomach or you can cause all sorts of digestive problems, including bloat in large breeds, which is an instant killer.

 

If you want to feed a complete food then feed it at one meal, add a bit of meat juice or very thin gravy to encourage the pup to eat it. Then feed the meaty bones etc at the next meal. IMO Beta is rubbish: mostly cereal and additives! If you really want to feed complete then go for one of the meat based ones: with meat as the first ingredient listed on the bag. Iams, Purina Proplan etc. There are cheaper ones but you only get what you pay for.

 

Far better to keep a pup on meat and bones etc: google BARF and follow one of the diets listed and you won't go far wrong.

[driller killer 33]

Firstly I would never leave any food down all the time: that can actually encourage a dog to pick a bit at a time, which is not what dogs were intended to do. Dogs have evolved to eat a stomach full then digest it: constant grazing is not good for them. Also, when the dog is an adult and you want to work it, you need to work it on an empty stomach or you can cause all sorts of digestive problems, including bloat in large breeds, which is an instant killer.

 

If you want to feed a complete food then feed it at one meal, add a bit of meat juice or very thin gravy to encourage the pup to eat it. Then feed the meaty bones etc at the next meal. IMO Beta is rubbish: mostly cereal and additives! If you really want to feed complete then go for one of the meat based ones: with meat as the first ingredient listed on the bag. Iams, Purina Proplan etc. There are cheaper ones but you only get what you pay for.

 

Far better to keep a pup on meat and bones etc: google BARF and follow one of the diets listed and you won't go far wrong.

Cheers skycat, I have done a lot of research in to BARF, prefering the raw meaty bone diet (i know dry complete is not included in this). The pup gets fed 3 meals a day of meat and bones/offal/fish etc. she will only have the complete food while she is growing and developing, when shes older will be down to 1 or 2 meals a day. i know some people will disagree feeding the dry but i think there is good things to be had from dry also and providing the most variety i can is the best option. to tell you the truth she eats very little of the dry. Im happy i think leaving the dry down, she does not graze i would say. Would you say leaving it down as an adult dog is more detrimental than as a pup? Im happy with it but also happy to have my mind changed on the subject.

I will have a look in the pet shop tommorow, im happy to get the more expensive ones as shes only a pup once and this is the most vital parts of her development. So should i go for the ones with the highest % meats? The vet reccomended 'science plan' or something along those lines.

Cheers

Neil

[sandymere 8,263]

Most decent quality puppy foods should do the job if your also feeding meat etc, basically the dry will be adding a little variety to the protein sources but in the main will supply some carbs to the diet. Greyhound puppies are often be raised on free acess to a complete by some breeders and seemed to develop well but if your mixing with a lot of other meals it may be an idea to use one or the other method. An alternative would be to stop the complete and add in alternative carb.

[Rainmaker 7]

As above. Beta and the like are cheap and nasty, even for commercial foods. I don't say that as a raw feeder either, I mean just look at the label.

 

Cereals (min 4% rice),Meat and Animal Derivatives (min 4% lamb),Derivatives of vegetable origin (min 0.5% beet pulp),Vegetable protein extracts,Oils and fats,Minerals,Vegetables (min 0.5% chicory)

 

At least they've stopped adding BHA and BHT by the looks of things, so that's something.

 

If you want to supplement with dry food, personally I'd keep it below 30% of the diet and go with something with a decent meat content. Having meat as the first named ingredient doesn't always (often?) mean it's a high meat product. For example:

 

Chicken meat meal, wheat, fresh chicken, oats, potato starch, fresh salmon... etc

 

Sounds like it's packed with meat doesn't it? If you combine the "non-meat" ingredients though that food is likely to be mostly non-meat ingredients. Worse still imho is "splitting", where the manufacturer will split the ingredients list so that meat appears higher than it does in the actual product. For example:

 

Chicken meat meal, wholegrain brown rice, fresh chicken, white rice, poultry oil, rice flour...etc

 

Such a food is mostly rice, but they try to make it look high in chicken. Just something to be aware of.

 

If you're looking for a "high quality" kibble, then personally I'd suggest Orijen. It's 70% meat and bones (75% in the puppy formula) and 30% (25% in puppy) fruit and veggies etc. It's expensive, but works out cheaper than the 'cheap' brands as you need to feed so little of it. Don't forget though your dog can and will thrive just fine on raw food alone.

[driller killer 33]

As above. Beta and the like are cheap and nasty, even for commercial foods. I don't say that as a raw feeder either, I mean just look at the label.

 

Cereals (min 4% rice),Meat and Animal Derivatives (min 4% lamb),Derivatives of vegetable origin (min 0.5% beet pulp),Vegetable protein extracts,Oils and fats,Minerals,Vegetables (min 0.5% chicory)

 

At least they've stopped adding BHA and BHT by the looks of things, so that's something.

 

If you want to supplement with dry food, personally I'd keep it below 30% of the diet and go with something with a decent meat content. Having meat as the first named ingredient doesn't always (often?) mean it's a high meat product. For example:

 

Chicken meat meal, wheat, fresh chicken, oats, potato starch, fresh salmon... etc

 

Sounds like it's packed with meat doesn't it? If you combine the "non-meat" ingredients though that food is likely to be mostly non-meat ingredients. Worse still imho is "splitting", where the manufacturer will split the ingredients list so that meat appears higher than it does in the actual product. For example:

 

Chicken meat meal, wholegrain brown rice, fresh chicken, white rice, poultry oil, rice flour...etc

 

Such a food is mostly rice, but they try to make it look high in chicken. Just something to be aware of.

 

If you're looking for a "high quality" kibble, then personally I'd suggest Orijen. It's 70% meat and bones (75% in the puppy formula) and 30% (25% in puppy) fruit and veggies etc. It's expensive, but works out cheaper than the 'cheap' brands as you need to feed so little of it. Don't forget though your dog can and will thrive just fine on raw food alone.

Cheers rainmaker, you truly are the spokes person for raw feeding

Will have alook for Orijen tommorow, is it easy to get?

She probaby will be solely on raw meat and bones etc when older, just trying to give as much variation as a pup, there bodys usually tell them what they need.

What about boot laces? she seems keen to eat mine at the moment.

Only using beta as that is what she was been fed when i got he, about 6wks ago, still on first bag and a fair bit left.

Cheers again

Neil

Edited December 1, 2009 by driller killer

[Rainmaker 7]

Cheers rainmaker, you truly are the spokes person for raw feeding

Will have alook for Orijen tommorow, is it easy to get?

She probaby will be solely on raw meat and bones etc when older, just trying to give as much variation as a pup, there bodys usually tell them what they need.

What about boot laces? she seems keen to eat mine at the moment.

Only using beta as that is what she was been fed when i got he, about 6wks ago, still on first bag and a fair bit left.

Cheers again

Neil

 

Hi Neil,

 

You can get Orijen from Pet Planet. They do free delivery on orders over £29, so 13.5KG of Orijen Puppy is £48 delivered. As I said I KNOW that sounds hella expensive, but bear in mind that it really is cheaper than any of the 'cheap' foods when you do the maths. For example, a terrier would only need about 50g to 60g of Orijen a day, instead of 250g to 300g of the 'cheap' foods - so over the course of a single bag of Orijen you'd have bought three more more 'cheap' sacks of food... Personally I'd say if you're going to supplement your pup's raw diet with it (< 30% please) don't get the big bag, go for a smaller bag (eg 2.5KG) and pay the two or three quid for delivery. That way you don't "lose" £50 if the pup decides s/he doesn't even like the stuff.

 

With such a high meat content though I've honestly only heard of one dog who didn't go bananas for it, and that was an old fussy sod who'd been on cheap wet food all its life. If the pup likes it, once your (much cheaper!) 2.5KG bag runs out you could maybe stick to getting the 7.5KG bags for £28, so that way it's not a bank breaker to actually pay out in one go. A 7.5KG sack of Orijen would still last three times as long as most 'cheap' 15KG sacks anyway, especially as you're only using it to "supplement" a raw diet.

 

As I said it's up to you fella, but personally I'd put that bag of Beta in the skip or drop it off at the local dog rescue. I genuinely would rather fast my dogs for two days than feed them that muck. As for the bootlaces... Pups are great aren't they?

[sandymere 8,263]

Alright been nice to each other so back to it. Why, if the pups are being fed a decent amount of meat already, would you want a complete with such a high protein percentage. Also if it is higher calorie pound for pound and protein and carbs have the same calories pound for pound then is it very high fat? Does a pup need such a high protein intake?

Protein in the Nutrition of the Growing Dog1

C. F. Gessert2 and P. H. Phillips

Department of Biochemistry, University of Wisconsin, Madison

The protein requirement for growth of young dogs was investigated by adding increments of casein to a basal diet which contained 10.6% of protein (N x 6.25), and was adequate in other nutrients. The other 4 diets contained 12.8, 15.0, 17.2 and 19.4% of crude protein respectively.

The basal diet sustained health and a retarded rate of growth in the young dogs. There was a correlation between the comparative gains in body weight and the comparative protein contents of the diets from 12.8 to 17.2% of protein, beyond which point there was no further increase in growth rate caused by additional protein. Since the diet containing 17.2% of protein was adequate for the growth of the pups, their requirements for the 10 essential amino acids apparently do not exceed the amounts that it contained.

The utilization of the basal diet was substantially improved by the addition of 2.5% of casein (2.2% "protein"), but more casein caused very little further improvement in this respect.

A 5 -month-old pup which had been very retarded in growth for 4 months by a protein deficiency was still able to grow at a normal rate when his dietary protein was raised to 17.2%.

________________________________________

[Rainmaker 7]

This is where, with respect, we're in danger of losing sight of the wood for the trees. At the end of the day dogs are designed from tip to tail to eat other animals, not dehydrated pellets consisting primarily of grain by-products. Those commercial foods are proven to cause disease, and since they have only been around 100 years or so there's no way one can argue they're in any way appropriate foodstuffs, nor natural (dogs haven't "evolved" to eat them as some sources claim - without evidence).

 

The fact commercial junk foods are proven to cause so much painful, degenerative disease in virtually every single dog eating them is enough to tell me to steer well clear of them wherever possible. With that in mind, when someone asks me about which kibble to feed and they're going to buy one regardless of what I say, I'll always recommend one high in named meats (high protein/fat) and low in carbohydrates so they at least avoid the "cereal derivatives, animal byproducts, fat, BHT" type brands.

 

Your study (Gessert and Phillips) is all very well, but what do we really learn from a study telling us the minimum levels of protein that a pup can live off, and the maximum level of protein used by pups eating that particular brand of food? Since the food contained carbohydrates (I'm presuming from your quote that it wasn't 12.8 to 17.2 % protein and the rest being fat), the results have no bearing on a raw fed dog's metabolism anyway. As we established in previous discussions, dietary carbohydrate intake is a regulator of fat metabolism at least, and likely protein - since if the diet lacked carbs then protein and fat would have been used instead.

 

Since the dogs in the Gessert and Phillips study were given carbs, their results cannot in any way be transposed onto dogs given a different food (i.e. raw). It would therefore make sense that a dog fed raw (no carbohydrates) would utilise well more than 17.2% of the protein in its diet (as it wouldn't be giving preference to the carbs instead). Unfortunately, as we all know, no real studies have been done with raw foods for us to make a comparative analysis. Since commercial interests fund the majority of research carried out, they're hardly rushing to perform research which would undoubtedly make their foods look rubbish, to put it bluntly.

 

I apologise if my reply isn't up to the usual standards (three miles long and full of quotes), but I'm dying a death today having decided to go ratting while still chugging through pneumonia. Bad idea, in hindsight... the dogs enjoyed themselves though

[TOPPER 1,809]

i feed our on a barf diet but at the moment i have 7 alaunt pups and there big monsters so there getting minced hearts in the morning chicken wings and CSJ puppy mix for dinner and minced hearts or tripe for there tea and theres always bone s around for them to chew on.

 

 

i must say there thiving on it

[driller killer 33]

Thanks for all the input, its confused me even more i think. will have to read a few times to digest it all.But every think helps.

One of the reasons i want to feed mixed dry/raw is down here it can be a bit difficult sourcing suitable meat. i can get raw pet mince form the butchers, most if not all offal. How does it affect them if fed too much offal?

Chicken portions from iceland are cheap enough, fish is ok, bones and chicken frames fine to get. Dont feed wings no more as they were too small for her.

Basically i am worried about supplying enough of the good stuff, and a dry food i thought would to up on anything she was missing, hence the best quality.

What about the mail order companys that can supply RMB? are they any good? Its min £30 order right. not a problem but how much space we talking in the freezer? I have a small chest freezer.

Also can too much protein cause hyperactivity?

Cheers

Neil

[sandymere 8,263]

Topper sounds a good mix but watch the weight gain if they are not paddock reared but in the house.

Rainmaker we must discuss carbs, raw versus cooked on a seperate post rather than hijack others as we do. You may have been half right when you promoted slightly slimmer dogs but the protein is still suspect see info for topper below.

Little reading for topper, hip dysplasia is at the top of a pyrimid of possible structural faults and can act as an early warning that a regime may have negative effects on less prone breeds.

 

(Canine Fertility Center - Dr. Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M.)

Over the years, our observations of the kennel populations of giant breeds and their siblings living in private homes have led to the conclusion that there is no such thing as congenital unilateral hip dysplasia, but only acquired unilateral hip dysplasia. The kennel dogs, whose exercise opportunities are maximized, with several dogs of a similar age free to run and play all day and night in large paddocks, show us some interesting things.

They grow much more slowly, because much of their food intake goes into play and running.

They rarely (almost never) suffer an injury.

They always have symmetrical hip sockets, even if they are very shallow.

Their litter mates in private homes, where exercise is confined to an hour or two of intense play or jogging when their owners return from work, provide us with a different set of observations.

They grow very large, very fast.

They often suffer injury.

They frequently have hip sockets of different depths.

The implications of these observations are enormous, but very simple to understand. These large breeds grow much too quickly for their biology to keep up. They frequently show some degree of clinical rickets with some bowing of the forelegs, and have large soft joints due to the inability of the body to deposit calcium in the bone at a rate equal to the rate of growth. They often show uneven growth, with the rear end growing over a few weeks, then the front end trying to catch up. As the rear leg assembly grows disproportionately, and the puppy is 'high in the rear', the mechanical leverage that the muscles are able to exert across these straighter angles is much reduced. The result of this is a decreased ability of muscle to protect joints from injury.

 

C. L. Fries and A. M. Remedios. The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine hip dysplasia: a review. Can Vet J, 1995;494-502. Hip dysplasia is a common developmental problem affecting the canine population. Despite extensive research into the condition, many questions remain unanswered and numerous misconceptions are present among the general public. The purpose of this paper is to review the current knowledge on the development of hip dysplasia, factors modifying its development, and current diagnostic techniques. A computerized literature search was conducted for the period of January 1983 to April 1985 using the MEDLINE and CAB databases, and the keywords hip dysplasia, hip, dog, and canine. Other articles, wherever possible original research articles, published before 1983 were also reviewed. Animals affected by hip dysplasia are born with normal hips, but quickly develop subluxation of the femoral head. Degenerative joint disease follows. Hip dysplasia is a complex, inherited, polygenic trait. Selective breeding of only normal dogs with normal littermates, parents, and grandparents is the recommended method of reducing the incidence in the general population. Gene expression in affected individuals may be modified by a number of environmental factors. These factors do not cause hip dysplasia, but they alter manifestations of the trait and its severity. Nutrition is a major environmental factor. Excess energy consumption increases the frequency and severity of hip dysplasia in genetically predisposed dogs. Food intake should be regulated to maintain a slender figure with the ribs and dorsal vertebral spines easily palpable, but not visible. Excess dietary calcium and vitamin D contribute to hip dysplasia in genetically predisposed individuals and should be avoided. High dose vitamin C supplementation in growing puppies does not prevent hip dysplasia, and this practice should be discontinued.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

 

R. D. Kealy, S. E. Olsson, K. L. Monti, et al. Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc, 1992;857-63. Forty-eight 8-week-old Labrador Retrievers were allotted to 2 groups of 24 dogs each; 1 group was fed ad libitum and the other group was given 25% less of the same feed until the dogs were 2 years old. Radiography of the hip joints was done when the dogs were 30, 42, 54, 78, and 104 weeks old. Subluxation was measured by the Norberg angle on radiographs made with the dog in the standard (extended limb) position. Independent of age at which the radiography was done, there was less subluxation of the femoral heads in the limit-fed dogs. Using the Swedish method of hip joint evaluation on the same radiographs, it was found that fewer dogs on limited food intake had signs of hip dysplasia. Radiographs done when dogs were 2 years old, for all the methods used (Norberg angle in standard and frog-limb position, the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals [OFA] score, and the Swedish score), revealed less hip dysplasia (less joint subluxation and less degenerative joint disease) in the limit-fed dogs. Using the OFA method, 7 of the 24 limit-fed dogs and 16 of the 24 ad libitum-fed dogs were diagnosed as having hip dysplasia. Similarly, using the Swedish method, 5 of the 24 limit-fed dogs and 18 of the 24 ad libitum-fed dogs were diagnosed as having hip dysplasia. The food-intake-related differences were significant both for the OFA score and for the Swedish scoreD.

 

C. Richardson. The role of nutrition in canine hip dysplasia. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract, 1992;529-40. The role of nutrition in canine hip dysplasia is as multifactorial as the disease itself. Large and giant breeds primarily are at risk for the disease. Rate of growth, feeding methods, feed consumption, specific nutrients, and electrolyte balances within the diet have all been shown to influence hip dysplasia. Known nutritional risk factors are rapid weight gain and excessive calcium supplementation. Nutritional factors with less secure roles in their influence on the disease process are vitamin C, protein, and carbohydrates. There exists a need to identify further and control the various nutritional factors in the diet that influence canine hip dysplasia.

Edited December 2, 2009 by sandymere

[Rainmaker 7]

Sandy, I'm keeping this short because, as you said, we're verging on hijacking the thread now. I'll dig out those papers and read with interest, but nothing I saw in the abstracts contraindicates a raw diet - quite the opposite. Raw fed dogs get masses of balanced calcium and phosphorous to support bone growth. They also grow much more slowly, and more lean, than their commercial/heavy carb fed brethren. That's well documented now. They don't tend to suffer these abnormal growth spurts and joint conditions the commercially "fast fed" dogs do. I have a nice paper on exact topic, specifically observing protein intake and its effect on the musculoskeletal development of large breeds, calcium metabolism etc though it's based around commercial feeding I think (as are 99.99% of studies out there unfortunately)... At any rate I'll PM it to you.

 

Neil / Driller Killer... TBH mate, you don't need to get your head buried in all this. Sandy and I just like to exchange academic arguments and suchlike. In practical terms it's not something you need to worry about really. From what you've said, you have access to chicken frames. With those forming most of the diet, with some fish, lamb breast (supermarket/butcher), chicken portions, tripe, offal, occasional whole eggs and any table scraps etc you want to add, that'd be a grand diet. More or less what I feed myself in fact, so you've no need to worry there. Check out www.rawmeatybones.com and www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html for some more ideas.

 

Cheers.

[driller killer 33]

With the barf diet it includes a set % of fruit and veg, but the raw meaty bone diet does not, what about fruit and veg?

Hopefully picture attached of said pup