over weight

[ebony1 0]

hi there i have two lurcher bitches they are nearly 7 months now. people say when they are puppys feed hem loads for there groth which is what i did but i was speaking to a man which has been doing lurchers ll of his life and he told me i need to start dropping the weight off them now but i dont know what to do because im affraid if i put them on a diet then their growth will suffer !!!!help!!!!!

[Guest deerhound hunter]

IT ALL DEPENDS WHEN GOING TO START ENTER THEM IN THE GAME,IF ITS GOING BE ANOTHER FEW MONTHS WHICH I THINK IS WISE,THEY WILL START TO WORK IT OF THEM SELFS,JUST DO PLENTY OF ROAD WALKING TO TONE THEM UP.............ATB DEERHOUNDHUNTER

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

They're still pups mate, I wouldn't worry too much. Just feed them a varied diet and give them the exercise a pup needs each day.

[MAIN MAN 277]

They're still pups mate, I wouldn't worry too much. Just feed them a varied diet and give them the exercise a pup needs each day.

[/quo

i always give pups as much food as they can eat there is plenty of time for them to work it off!

[Rainmaker 7]

Personally I like to keep pups lean (not skinny), but each to their own. I just thought it was worth mentioning that dogs fed a high protein, moderate to high fat diet that's low in carbohydrates tend to lose fat and 'tone up' quite naturally. Because protein is either used in muscle building and/or repair, or else excreted (i.e. it's not stored as fat) the dogs fed such a diet - which is their naturally intended one - lose the excess flab all those previous carbs had put onto their frames, allowing them to "tighten up" and become of a much firmer, leaner muscle mass.

 

Because you're not following silly human-based regimes that the commercial pet food manufacturers like to promote (eg calorie restriction), the dogs can still eat as much as they require and not gain weight. Any exceess calories from protein (in a high protein high fat, low carb diet) is simply passed away by the kidneys and excreted, doing no harm in the process. That leaves no room for your dog to gain weight in the sense of fat, and means you're NOT having to shovel "light" commercial foods down them. Such commercial diet foods are basically tons of bloaty fillers to fill them up, yet not much nutrition - essentially passing crap from one end to the other with not much goodness in between.

 

Raw food is ideal (meaty bones, whole carcasses) but if you prefer to feed a dry food for any reason something like Orijen Puppy would do the trick. Orijen is ideal (as far as dry food goes anyway) at 40% protein, 20% fat and is made from a mixture of 75% raw meaty bones and 25% fruit & veg. Personally I'd stick to the raw food as there's more than the content of the food to consider; raw is higher quality, better for the teeth AND cheaper. But either way don't stress yourself about it. With some minor dietary adjustments as above and a bit of exercise they'll be right as rain in no time.

[awen 29]

Personally I like to keep pups lean (not skinny), but each to their own. I just thought it was worth mentioning that dogs fed a high protein, moderate to high fat diet that's low in carbohydrates tend to lose fat and 'tone up' quite naturally. Because protein is either used in muscle building and/or repair, or else excreted (i.e. it's not stored as fat) the dogs fed such a diet - which is their naturally intended one - lose the excess flab all those previous carbs had put onto their frames, allowing them to "tighten up" and become of a much firmer, leaner muscle mass.

 

Because you're not following silly human-based regimes that the commercial pet food manufacturers like to promote (eg calorie restriction), the dogs can still eat as much as they require and not gain weight. Any exceess calories from protein (in a high protein high fat, low carb diet) is simply passed away by the kidneys and excreted, doing no harm in the process. That leaves no room for your dog to gain weight in the sense of fat, and means you're NOT having to shovel "light" commercial foods down them. Such commercial diet foods are basically tons of bloaty fillers to fill them up, yet not much nutrition - essentially passing crap from one end to the other with not much goodness in between.

 

Raw food is ideal (meaty bones, whole carcasses) but if you prefer to feed a dry food for any reason something like Orijen Puppy would do the trick. Orijen is ideal (as far as dry food goes anyway) at 40% protein, 20% fat and is made from a mixture of 75% raw meaty bones and 25% fruit & veg. Personally I'd stick to the raw food as there's more than the content of the food to consider; raw is higher quality, better for the teeth AND cheaper. But either way don't stress yourself about it. With some minor dietary adjustments as above and a bit of exercise they'll be right as rain in no time.

 

dont think you can get a better answer than that, sound advice

[sandymere 8,263]

Personally I like to keep pups lean (not skinny), but each to their own. I just thought it was worth mentioning that dogs fed a high protein, moderate to high fat diet that's low in carbohydrates tend to lose fat and 'tone up' quite naturally. Because protein is either used in muscle building and/or repair, or else excreted (i.e. it's not stored as fat) the dogs fed such a diet - which is their naturally intended one - lose the excess flab all those previous carbs had put onto their frames, allowing them to "tighten up" and become of a much firmer, leaner muscle mass.

 

Because you're not following silly human-based regimes that the commercial pet food manufacturers like to promote (eg calorie restriction), the dogs can still eat as much as they require and not gain weight. Any exceess calories from protein (in a high protein high fat, low carb diet) is simply passed away by the kidneys and excreted, doing no harm in the process. That leaves no room for your dog to gain weight in the sense of fat, and means you're NOT having to shovel "light" commercial foods down them. Such commercial diet foods are basically tons of bloaty fillers to fill them up, yet not much nutrition - essentially passing crap from one end to the other with not much goodness in between.

 

Raw food is ideal (meaty bones, whole carcasses) but if you prefer to feed a dry food for any reason something like Orijen Puppy would do the trick. Orijen is ideal (as far as dry food goes anyway) at 40% protein, 20% fat and is made from a mixture of 75% raw meaty bones and 25% fruit & veg. Personally I'd stick to the raw food as there's more than the content of the food to consider; raw is higher quality, better for the teeth AND cheaper. But either way don't stress yourself about it. With some minor dietary adjustments as above and a bit of exercise they'll be right as rain in no time.

 

 

Lordy raw food the cure for every ill lol.

A little science..

Besides being the most important building blocks of proteins aminoacids can also be used as precursors of nitrogen-containing molecules: hemes, nucleotides, glutathione, physiologically-active amines, etc.

 

Excess diet aminoacids are neither stored nor excreted as such: they are converted in pyruvate, oxaloacetate, a-ketoglutarate, etc. Therefore, aminoacids are also precursors of glucose, fatty acids, and ketone bodies, and can be used for energy production.

[sandymere 8,263]

They're still pups mate, I wouldn't worry too much. Just feed them a varied diet and give them the exercise a pup needs each day.

[/quo

i always give pups as much food as they can eat there is plenty of time for them to work it off!

 

 

I'd second that.

 

Ebony1 Just because someone tells you something don't mean they knew what they were talking about.

[Rainmaker 7]

So in other words a raw food diet or, as I was actually referring to in this case, Orijen dry food, will suffice for the OP's needs and his pups will do fine on it with some exercise. I really don't get your continuing references to 'the raw police' and 'raw is the cure to all ills'. Most on here feed raw, because they realise its proven benefits (and conversely the immense proven harm that commercial food does). Simple as that.

 

All I'm saying is that if he feeds a high quality diet without loads of crap in it, the dogs condition will improve. Dogs fed on very high carb foods (some commercial foods are as little as 3% meat with 97% "cereal byproducts", and chemicals) will be much more prone to fat gain than one fed high quality proteins and fats. As it happens I also spent half the post recommending a 'premium' dry food to ensure the OP had a choice, so what's your issue with constantly trying to make out I'm BSing the forum? Since a majority on here already feed raw to begin with, what does it matter?

[sandymere 8,263]

Sorry thought you said

"Because protein is either used in muscle building and/or repair, or else excreted (i.e. it's not stored as fat) the dogs fed such a diet - which is their naturally intended one - lose the excess flab all those previous carbs had put onto their frames, allowing them to "tighten up" and become of a much firmer, leaner muscle mass." (Rainmaker)

Which is wrong is it not? :protest: As this seem to be the main concept of your piece it would make the advice seem nonsense and I would hate to see you make a fool of youself.

[Rainmaker 7]

I could have worded it better, yes. But having been up 36 hours straight with pneumonia I thought better to put across the bones of it (pun intended) rather than sit writing more essays for you to rebut. My mission failed. I appreciate your concern about my advice sounding incorrect because of a few words of the entire thing being potentially taken out of context, but fortunately that's not the case and what I said was essentially corect.

 

Feeding a diet high in rubbish carbs, or any other carbs come to that, (eg a food made with predominantly 'cereals and cereal derivatives' and the like) isn't going to help much with weight loss, especially in a dog. As all the raw fed working dogs on here will attest, as can those fed on a high protein high fat, low carbohydrate commercial food like Orijen, feeding such a high protein high fat diet with minimal carbs makes it easy to build a lean, toned musculature without the 'carb-overload = fat' scenario developing. You have already agreed that excess dietary carbohydrate is simply stored as fat.

 

Yes, proteins are converted to several substances and after being used for muscle repair and building, any excess is (the same as any calorific intake) converted to - amongst other things - glycogen, and any excess of glycogen can be stored as fat. However, most importantly, dietary carbohydrates are in themselves a regulator of fat oxidation and a dog fed a high protein high fat diet (i.e. low carb) will naturally burn fat in preference to carbohydrate. Hence they tend to be leaner, which formed the basis of my advice to the OP. I have never denied this, in fact it was also a basis of my arguments in the electrolytes thread.

 

You seem to be saying the same thing as me in a different way. I said excess protein (note PROTEIN not AMINO ACIDS - though yes of course protein contains amino acids) is not simply stored as fat but that any excess intake of it leads to the kidneys flushing it away. My kidneys comment should have been clearer. Higher amounts of waste metabolites caused by a high protein diet does not harm the kidneys, and they will simply flush away the excess without issue. It was a glancing albeit vague reference to the "high protein damages the kidneys" myth. As you briefly refer, excess protein intake leads to the amino acids being broken down via deamination and the waste is subsequently excreted by the kidneys without issue. Despite arguing the toss, you went onto basically agree with me by saying:

 

"Excess diet aminoacids are neither stored nor excreted as such".

 

I didn't say anything about amino acids themselves, I was talking about crude dietary protein intake itself not the subsequent metabolites in their various forms and uses. I didn't discuss the subsequent mechanisms at all. You're rebutting my "excess protein" comment with a comment about amino acids when that's only one part of the picture. Did I really need to provide the OP with a lecture on how protein is broken down into amino acids, which are then via glyconeogenesis, deamination and other mechanisms either used by the muscles as fuel, stored by the body and the waste metabolites excreted? I daresay he doesn't even care lol He just wants to know about getting some weight off his pup, and the diet I recommended would suit admirably.

 

Dogs fed on a raw diet (high in protein and fat, low in carbohydrate) tend to gain weight in the form of solid muscle mass if they're underweight, and lose weight (excess body fat) if they're overweight. Dogs continuing to be fed high carbohydrate diets will tend to remain overweight, as evidenced by the OP. I simply recommended that rather than messing about with cutting rations, he could either switch to raw for immediate health benefits (not just weight related) or else try a high fat/protein dry food like Orijen.

 

At the end of the day OP, do what you think's best.

[shannon1970 0]

iv always fed as much as they can eat when pups plenty of exercise as well

you dont want weak pups,what you put in you get out

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Sandymere, I see you try and bring down certain things Rainmaker is saying but you're not really leaving any information for the person (and the rest of us) who started the thread, Not that its any of my business like.

 

You seem like an intelligent person and your opinion on this subject interests me so if you don't mind me asking I'd like to know more of what YOU know on the subject if you wouldn't mind sharing with us that is.

 

Do you think there is a better alternative to feeding a dog what it has naturally evolved to eat?

[lawrence 657]

i wish everyone on these forums could disagree like Sandymere and Rainmaker, fairplay lads. your info is a bit over my head though but like Rainmaker i prefer my pups to be lean and a good barf diet does the job for me. a fat pup is just that and for me thats not the way to rear a canine athlete.

[sandymere 8,263]

Sandymere, I see you try and bring down certain things Rainmaker is saying but you're not really leaving any information for the person (and the rest of us) who started the thread, Not that its any of my business like.

 

You seem like an intelligent person and your opinion on this subject interests me so if you don't mind me asking I'd like to know more of what YOU know on the subject if you wouldn't mind sharing with us that is.

 

Do you think there is a better alternative to feeding a dog what it has naturally evolved to eat?

B8gger Bugg£r just done a nice answer but got somtehing come up a lost it lol.

I don't have a better alternative, we don't need one, as dogs have evolved to be able to utilise a broad spectrum of food sources which alows us to pick and mix a diet to suit any dogs particuler needs. If posted a few times on the subject and basically my stand is that inclusion is better than exclusion ie a dog doesn't need carbs in it's diet but as it is designed to be able to utilise them then why not use this ability if it suits a particuler type of exercise. In truth there is to much empathis on diet in comparison to training/exercise.

 

It's to many calories that cause the body to store it as fat so less calories or more exercise will lead to weight lose rather than just jiggling with where the calories come from.

 

Lawrence thank you we try to "act" like gentlemen probably as we both have the best interests of the dogs at heart it's just a shame I can't get him to move with the times lol.