Starting up reloading

[Mr_Logic 5]

JonathanL, do stop talking crap, there's a good chap.

 

Proof ammo will not develop 100,000 CUP in a .223, that's about twice chamber pressure and pretty damn hard to achieve (is this even possible?)?

 

In any event, proof ammo is for one round - then it's stamped and job done. Much more risk of something blowing up if the abuse is prolonged.

 

Regarding SAAMI specs - they're the standard for the round. So if you ask a 223 to shoot 223 ammo, then it should be within SAAMI specs and thus it will work as that's what it's manufactured for. If you ask any rifle to use 5.56, it's way over 223 specs, and thus it MAY blow up. It may not - it depends on luck and the particular weapon. Therefore, nobody in their right mind will advise the use of 5.56 ammo because it's not the right stuff.

 

Only an utter berk would spend a load of money on a rifle, and a load more on a scope, and then feed it totally the wrong ammo, which as well as being bloody dangerous, won't shoot for shit even if by some miracle the action and barrel cope OK.

 

And a Merry Xmas to one and all

[SNAP SHOT 194]

just to put my two cents in, i totally agree that 5.56 should NOT be used in .223, you may get away with it for years or it may go bang on the first round.....

 

it's like playing russian rolute.... the odds will sooner or later will not be in your favour....

 

 

Snap.

[JonathanL 4]

1.) SAAMI are required by US law to update their figures every 5 years

2.) 5.56 mil spec ammo is indeed not the same as it was 30 years ago. It's a bloody sight more powerful. If you are dumb enough to use mil.surp 5.56 in your .223, go ahead, feel free. When you get your stupid head blown off, that is just EVOLUTION IN ACTION. Why are we arguing anyway? The savings are negligible and the risk is winding up dead to save a few pence. No brainer.

 

Ric

 

It isn't "more powerful" and it doesn't produce markedly higher chamber pressures. The specs for modern NATO 5.56mm are totally different from what they were originally. It's completely different bullet for a start.

 

People are "dumb" enough to use 5.56mm ammo in rifles stamped .223 every single day. If there were any appreciable problem then guns would be blowing up left right and centre. I can pretty much guarantee that someone will be doing it next time I'm shooting, probably lots of folks will. This is the whole reason why .223 is such a popular chambering - people can guy cheap ammo. It isn't about saving a few pence, either. Miliraty surplus ammo is an awful lot cheaper than commercial stuff.

 

Point me to a source of guns blowing up solely to the use of 5.56mm ammo in a .223 rifle and I might start believing you.

 

J.

[JonathanL 4]

If you are dumb enough to use mil.surp 5.56 in your .223, go ahead, feel free. Ric

 

It's even more dumb to tell a reloading novice to ignore advice that is from well estabished sources.

 

I'm not telling anyoine to ognore anything.

 

J.

[JonathanL 4]

johnathan l. the case here is more one of putting .357 ammo in a .38 special weapon (which is not advisable and will not chamber).

as anyone who has had any formal training with firearms will tell you" if its not stamped on the barrel you don't shoot it".

everyone is entitled to an opinion here and may do as they please.

if someone has no regard for their or my safety i would not wish to shoot anywhere near them.

 

some of the chaps here have clearly alot more knowledge of reloading than me,the point they are making is in my eyes blindingly obvious.

 

So, you shouldn't shoot .38 specials in a .357 for saety reasons? It's perfectly safe and is totally standard and accepted practice. Same with .44 Spec or Russian in a .44 Magnum or 3" Mag in a 3.5" magnum chambered gun. What about 7.7mm stamped ammo in a .303 rifle? How about a nitro for black load in an old double rifle?

 

This isn't about not having regard for your safety, it's about knowing what you are talking about. Show me some documented cases of guns blowing up and people getting killed because they used 5.56mm ammo in a rifle chambered for .223 Rem.

 

J

[riohog 5,701]

surplus 5.56 rounds i wouldnt use in a sporting rifle ,although dont think you would have any major desasters chamber presure wise i got a feeling the throat angle on a mill spec rifle my be different so think there would be accuraccy issues ,reformed onced fired cases would be ok if they were full lengh sized and reprimed

 

just my take on it

[JonathanL 4]

JonathanL, do stop talking crap, there's a good chap.

 

You first.

 

Proof ammo will not develop 100,000 CUP in a .223, that's about twice chamber pressure and pretty damn hard to achieve (is this even possible?)?

 

Look in the back of Cartridges of the World - the section that deals with US military ammo.

 

In any event, proof ammo is for one round - then it's stamped and job done. Much more risk of something blowing up if the abuse is prolonged.

Guns rarely "blow up" even with lots and lots of hard use. It's virtually impossible to blow up a modern rifle unless you completely block the barrel. Years ago, the time of the semi-auto rifle ban, Guns Review magazine tried to destroy a Ruger semi-auto .44 mag. They drove a 240 grain bullet half way down the barrel, filled the rest of it with H-110 powder, placed a case with a primer in it in the breech and fired it. It wedged in action open but they still had to put an angle-grinder through the action as it was stil in one piece. Oh yes, and the barrel was stuffed into the ground as well!!!

 

Proof is often for more than one round. Revolvers are fired with all their cylinders and 5.56mm military rifles are fired with least two.

 

 

Regarding SAAMI specs - they're the standard for the round. So if you ask a 223 to shoot 223 ammo, then it should be within SAAMI specs and thus it will work as that's what it's manufactured for. If you ask any rifle to use 5.56, it's way over 223 specs, and thus it MAY blow up. It may not - it depends on luck and the particular weapon. Therefore, nobody in their right mind will advise the use of 5.56 ammo because it's not the right stuff.

5.56 is not way over .223 specs - not by any stretch of the imaginatioon. Shooters shoot millions of rounds of 5.56mm ammo in .223 rifles. You see it all the time, people have been doing it for years and years - this is why they buy .223 rifles. I've seen people shooting hundreds of rouns a day. Why don't their guns explode? Try going to a range and looking for yourself.

 

Only an utter berk would spend a load of money on a rifle, and a load more on a scope, and then feed it totally the wrong ammo, which as well as being bloody dangerous, won't shoot for shit even if by some miracle the action and barrel cope OK.

People do this all the time, like I said, this is why .223/5.56 rifles are so popular. Having said that, I wouldn't as I agree that military surplus ammo is usually sh!te.

 

And a Merry Xmas to one and all

[JonathanL 4]

just to put my two cents in, i totally agree that 5.56 should NOT be used in .223, you may get away with it for years or it may go bang on the first round.....

 

it's like playing russian rolute.... the odds will sooner or later will not be in your favour....

 

 

Snap.

 

And I'm still waiting for evidence that this actually happens or is likely to.

[JonathanL 4]

More should be mentioned as regards this. Firstly; you cannot directly compare pressure figures between 5.56mm and .223. The NATO pressure test is not the same as the SAAMI one as it takes the readings at a different point - the throat, not further down the cartridge as the SAAMI one does. This gives a higher reading as the throat is the point of greatest pressure. The type of transducers use are different also.

 

Secondly; people are concenrating on the SAAMI specs but there is also the CIP, which is the Europen equivalent. CIP specs for .223 and 5.56, both service and proof rounds, are actually the same.

 

Thirdly; American ammo is very often loaded to lower pressures than European stuf because the yanks are terrified of getting sued.

 

Fourthly; there is not only one specification for a .223 chamber and one for a 5.56mm chamber. Different manufacturers use different specs for their reamers and many makers will have several 5.56mm chambers available. Rock-River Arms has it's own and Armalite have a hybrid .223/5.56mm chamber - what on earth do you claiisfy that as?

 

The bottom line is that if it really were as dangerous as people are making out then gun makers would be writing things like "Do not use NATO 5.56mm ammunition in this gun" but they aren't and never have done. The only example of that I can think of is the fact that H&K puts a warning on one of their gas operated rifles along the lines of "Do not use commercial .308 ammunition in the rifle" but that is because of potential damage to the special floating chamber it uses.

 

As for only using ammo for which the gun is stamped; what about the Swiss 5.6mm round - that's actually 5.56 NATO standard but doesn't have the same name!

 

In short, you won't blow a .223 up by using 5.56mm ammo in it.

Edited December 26, 2009 by JonathanL

[AzMaN 0]

 

 

The bottom line is that if it really were as dangerous as people are making out then gun makers would be writing things like "Do not use NATO 5.56mm ammunition in this gun" but they aren't and never have done.

 

 

Im sure my remmington 700 manual says this.

[rjimmer 4]

 

 

The bottom line is that if it really were as dangerous as people are making out then gun makers would be writing things like "Do not use NATO 5.56mm ammunition in this gun" but they aren't and never have done.

 

 

Im sure my remmington 700 manual says this.

So AzMaN, will you be using Nato 5.56 ammo in your .223 Remington?

[rjimmer 4]

 

I'm not telling anyone to ignore anything.

 

J.

 

I'm glad to hear that!

[AzMaN 0]

The bottom line is that if it really were as dangerous as people are making out then gun makers would be writing things like "Do not use NATO 5.56mm ammunition in this gun" but they aren't and never have done.

 

 

Im sure my remmington 700 manual says this.

So AzMaN, will you be using Nato 5.56 ammo in your .223 Remington?

 

 

no chance, i intend to use it with the ammo its designed for that being .223

[SNAP SHOT 194]

Taken from winchester ammo themselves....

 

There are a lot of questions about these two cartridges. Many people think they are identical - merely different designations for commercial and military. The truth is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same and you should know the differences before buying either cartridge.

 

•The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.

 

•The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem.

 

•The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure. However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to the reloader.

 

•The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.

 

•You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.

 

•Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.

 

•The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.

 

Before buying either of these two types of ammunition, always check your gun to find what caliber it is chambered for, then buy the appropriate ammunition. Most 5.56mm rounds made have full metal jacket bullets. Performance bullets - soft points, hollow points, Ballistic Silvertips, etc. - are loaded in .223 Rem cartridges.

 

Firing a .223 Rem cartridge in a 5.56mm-chambered gun is safe and merely gives you slightly reduced velocity and accuracy.

 

However we do not recommend, nor does SAAMI recommend, firing a 5.56mm cartridge in a gun chambered for the .223 Rem as the shorter leade can cause pressure-related problems.

 

Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition

East Alton Illinois

 

futher sites state that they never had problems, but it also warns of the difference in batch lots of ammo with regard to case thicknessess col etc.., and it only takes one round to blow the bolt back in your face....

 

If someone wants to run the risk, just consoder the consequences....... is it really worth the gamble.....????

 

 

Snap.

 

 

 

 

 

[rjimmer 4]

 

So AzMaN, will you be using Nato 5.56 ammo in your .223 Remington?

 

 

no chance, i intend to use it with the ammo its designed for that being .223

As I hoped!