Delicate situation- how to handle ?

[welshboy454 3]

Our shoot syndicate has the pens on farmer A's property although most of the shooting is done on adjoining land.

Last season one wood shot badly- the reason was that Farmer A's dogs - 3 of them hunt the wood themselves scattering the birds virtually every day.

This year they have started in a second wood and I picked them up and dropped them off home and told Farmer A .

The problem is that they are not kenneled and soon as his back is turned off they will be again hunting.

 

A real catch 22 situation - how do you deal with it ?

[mushroom 13,268]

Something similar was in the Shooting Times this week. If you have the sporting rights to the land, tennant farmers can only hunt the land themselves with one other person AFTER informing the person responsible for the shoot to hunt the land. They are not allowed to let their dogs run amok knowing that it can upset the productivity of the shoot or set up wherever they like to shoot

[alimac 882]

Something similar was in the Shooting Times this week. If you have the sporting rights to the land, tennant farmers can only hunt the land themselves with one other person AFTER informing the person responsible for the shoot to hunt the land. They are not allowed to let their dogs run amok knowing that it can upset the productivity of the shoot or set up wherever they like to shoot

this is from BASC, have a read.... there is very little you can do apart from get him to kennel them when there not working...

 

 

Thanks for the email. This is a rather complex area and one that is frequently misunderstood. In this case it appears, at first sight, that the police might have taken the correct line.

 

 

 

You state that the couple’s dog was out of control and took a chicken. This is good, because under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 chickens would fall under the definition of “livestock†but game would not. However, under the Animals (Scotland) Act 1987 the definition of livestock is extended and would include game such as pheasants but only when they are in captivity, such as in a release pen. This is a civil law and enables claims for damages to be made.

 

 

 

The 1953 Act does not provide any power for a farmer, for instance, to shoot a dog worrying sheep – it merely creates a criminal offence committed by the owner of the dog. A dog remains someone’s property so shooting it has to be very carefully considered. The 1987 Act does give some defence for a farmer shooting a dog worrying sheep – as long as it was done to protect livestock, the person was entitled to do so and the police were informed within 48 hours.

 

 

 

In a release pen, therefore, it might be reasonable for a gamekeeper to take action against a dog that was worrying or killing pheasants. However, the general comment made by your gamekeeper about the dog in question worrying pheasants (and I assume that these are pheasants outside a release pen) is more complicated. He would be committing an offence by shooting the dog for worrying what were now wild birds (rather than livestock) unless he could show lawful excuse. Lawful excuse would include the owner of the dog (or cat) consenting to the destruction of their pet – highly unlikely – or it would be destroying the cat or dog to protect your own property. This would be fine in a release pen situation – the birds are someone’s property. Once outside the release pen the birds belong to nobody and consequently shooting a dog, or threatening to shoot a dog, could be an offence in itself and would probably lead to a claim for damages from the dog’s owner.

 

 

 

Finally, experience has shown that whenever a dog is shot and the owners find out, the police normally look into it very carefully. We have had situations where the person who shot the dog – in most cases the farmer – has had all of his firearms and shotguns removed while the situation is reviewed. We therefore advise our members that they should only shoot dogs worrying livestock as a last resort, and that they should make sure that they have tried or considered other non-lethal approaches first and that they have a witness to confirm that the dog in question was causing the problem.

 

 

 

While I appreciate that threatening to shoot someone’s dog could act an effective deterrent it could also be regarded as threatening behaviour.

 

 

 

Hope that this rather lengthy ramble helps – if not get back in touch.

 

 

 

Yours,

[comanche 3,076]

Our shoot syndicate has the pens on farmer A's property although most of the shooting is done on adjoining land.

Last season one wood shot badly- the reason was that Farmer A's dogs - 3 of them hunt the wood themselves scattering the birds virtually every day.

This year they have started in a second wood and I picked them up and dropped them off home and told Farmer A .

The problem is that they are not kenneled and soon as his back is turned off they will be again hunting.

 

A real catch 22 situation - how do you deal with it ?

Section 9 1971 Animals Act ;provides that it is lawful to kill or injure a dog which is

(i) worrying or about to worry livestock and there is no other reasonable way of preventing the worrying ;or

(ii) dog has been worrying but is still in the area unacompanied and without any means of ascertaining ownership.

To do this the person harming the dog must be entitled to protect the livestock(ie owns the livestock and/ or t he land or is authorised by the owner) and as stated by alimac inform the police within 48 hours .

Clearly no use at all in your case as the pheasants loose in the wood are not defined as livestock and the farmer is hardly going to authorise you to shoot his own dogs .

You could take the farmer to court for compensation for damaging your Shoots' interests. You could catch the dogs and instead of giving them back you could hand em to a dog warden so the farmer would have to pay a fee to get em back every time they strayed . You could stop renting his woods for your pens ... Trouble is these are very un-neighbourly solutions to what is probably an embarrising situation for all concerned .

Why not build him a kennel and run . Either do it for the sake of goodwill or pay a reduced shoot rent next season . Just a thought

Edited October 10, 2009 by comanche

[bullmastiff 615]

I don't think shooting the farmers pets is going to help the situation!!! even if he is legally entitled to.

Comanche, I thought about suggesting the dog kennel/run idea but then thought that the Farmer is probably busy enough without being given extra work/ hassle of having to walk his dogs. They will end up being locked in at night but still let out to run all day.

 

Only thing I can think would help is by making it an unpleasant experience for the dogs to be in the woods?

Either set out several electric wires to shock them which would probably be the easier option (we picked up several car batteries from the scrapy quite cheap for the pens) or you could catch them, rag them, then chase them from the woods using thin hazel, do that a few times and they should get the picture pretty quick.

 

All the best.

 

Luke.

Edited October 11, 2009 by bullmastiff

[alimac 882]

The problem arises in there definition of live stock, it must be inside a fenced area before such drastic action can be taken, so poults that are outside the release pen are not covered by the word livestock

[deadlock 0]

A retired once keeper told me its best to shoot the lead dog, IE fastest runner the one doing the catching the trouble causing dog the one that starts the hunting off.

At the out set and say sorry Ive not seen you dog mate but ill keep my eye out but if you wound it and it gets home it then can become ugly, but as you've already spoken to the Farmer its to late for you

[AL BUNDY 45]

A retired once keeper told me its best to shoot the lead dog, IE fastest runner the one doing the catching the trouble causing dog the one that starts the hunting off.

At the out set and say sorry Ive not seen you dog mate but ill keep my eye out but if you wound it and it gets home it then can become ugly, but as you've already spoken to the Farmer its to late for you

a retired nutcase once told meif anybody shoots your dog stick a screwdriver through his neck and if any body says anything just say you were helping him ghange a plug and the stupid c**t slipped.

[Lost Generation 93]

There's a simple answer that harms no-one put a two or three strand electric fence round the wood, problem solved!

[alimac 882]

A retired once keeper told me its best to shoot the lead dog, IE fastest runner the one doing the catching the trouble causing dog the one that starts the hunting off.

At the out set and say sorry Ive not seen you dog mate but ill keep my eye out but if you wound it and it gets home it then can become ugly, but as you've already spoken to the Farmer its to late for you

a retired nutcase once told meif anybody shoots your dog stick a screwdriver through his neck and if any body says anything just say you were helping him ghange a plug and the stupid c**t slipped.

No one from what iv read has said kill the dogs, were just talking about the legalitys of it

[waidmann 105]

try to have a word with the farmer about the problem over a cuppa.explain that you are considering fencing the wood(electric) and if he has a problem with that.

if you are ok with him he may show willing to either take more care with the dogs or help with the fencing( physicly or finacially).

i had a similar problem with a farmers dogs and cats,he was very undertanding,but saw no reason to change anything at all.his land and he would do as he pleased( in germany he HAD to have his land in our shoot,he also had problems with some of our guns/members and funnily none at all with me the keeper)).and so nothing could be done.

shortly afterwards one dog was run over( no irony there) and the other decided to move to the neighbors( our shoot captain ) where the little jack russel became a member of our pack and is still there now( four times he was taken back,then the farmer was given 150 euro)

so ahappy end.

 

the cats are another story

[desertdog 149]

does,nt the country code say something about dogs being under control at all times in the countryside, and if your renting the shoot off the farmer, he,s out of order and dont care about his charges, there must be a compromise somewhere, what boils my piss is when you get a brave man behind a gun, that says he will shoot your dog if it does it again, no need for that, i no it has,nt been said it on this thread, yet!

[alimac 882]

Quote what boils my piss is when you get a brave man behind a gun, that says he will shoot your dog if it does it again

 

Well may be the so called brave man who has spent a crazy amount of man hours to produce his birds gets a little pissed that some knob that is unable to control there dog turns a blind eye to it going off on one, when at the wrong time of year only a few visits to a pen could ruin that drive for the full season... what alot dont seam to realise is that no matter what the reason , if we have a bad season our jobs, houses etc etc are on the line, and if folk think that we will just lie back and let things happen to jepordise our security then there far from the mark..... if i found one inside my release pen nor it or its owner would get a second chance......

 

Its simple really, if they cant control a dog then they should have one, plain and simple

 

ur right about the coutryside code, but it does not have to be on the lead to be classed as under control

Edited October 13, 2009 by alimac

[comanche 3,076]

Quote what boils my piss is when you get a brave man behind a gun, that says he will shoot your dog if it does it again

 

Well may be the so called brave man who has spent a crazy amount of man hours to produce his birds gets a little pissed that some knob that is unable to control there dog turns a blind eye to it going off on one, when at the wrong time of year only a few visits to a pen could ruin that drive for the full season... what alot dont seam to realise is that no matter what the reason , if we have a bad season our jobs, houses etc etc are on the line, and if folk think that we will just lie back and let things happen to jepordise our security then there far from the mark..... if i found one inside my release pen nor it or its owner would get a second chance......

 

Its simple really, if they cant control a dog then they should have one, plain and simple

 

ur right about the coutryside code, but it does not have to be on the lead to be classed as under control

Its very true . There are still supposed "countrymen" who like to believe that all a lowground keeper does is drive round in a land Rover tossing corn out of the window and that on high ground all that is reguired is a gun and a box of matches. There's a lot more to it than that but it does'nt matter how much work is put into maintaining the environment ,feeding and protecting the birds if they are being disturbed all the time . Extra feed and dogging -in will not persuade those birds that a wood is safe if it clearly is'nt . These blank drives are the ones the Guns (especially paying Guns ) remember and like alimac says someones livelyhood depends on it. Even on an amateur Shoot the result of months of hard unpaid work being ruined by outside influences can bring desolation to the Keeper .

There was a time when it was a mark of dishonour in the countryside to own a straying dog .Everyone knew and accepted the consequences . Nowadays too many people actualy believe that the countryside is the place to go to let their dogs have a run ,hunt about a bit and then wonder why they never see any of the interesting wildlife that Bill Oddie and Kate Humble have orgasms over .

[desertdog 149]

simple then really, go talk to the farmer in question and get it sorted, i agree with you allmac, but surely its the last resort to shoot a dog, yes it does fek it up, but why do these dikead keepers give the big un first, find out who,s dog it is , av a word before taking the law into your own hands, at least then youve covered your ass, if it goes further.