How fast are you?

[RicW 67]

There was a thread on here recently asking about bolt-action vs semi-auto, and several people said they could reload and fire fast enough with bolt-action. That set me wondering just how fast is fast enough? The world record for aimed shots with a bolt-action rifle was set at Bisley in 1914. Sergeant Instructor Snoxall, firing a standard issue Lee-Enfield with peepsights, put 38 rounds in a 12" group at 300 yards in one minute.[/size]

 

Just think about it. Assume he started with 11 rounds - 10 in the mag + 1 ready chambered. He fired 11, then using 5-round charger clips loaded 10, fired 10 (21), loaded 10 fired 10 (31) loaded 10 fired 7 (38) in 60 seconds flat. His actual rate of fire must have been on the order of 1 shot per second. 60 rpm! No wonder the Germans thought they were up against machine guns.

 

When I owned a sniperised Lee-Enfield I could put 10 in a 12" group at 300 yards with Parker-Hale target sights but it took way more than a minute!

Note as well that the Mk VII .303 cartridge was equal in performance and kick to 30-06, more than .308/7.62 NATO, and a helluva lot more than .22lr.

 

Have any of you guys tried testing rate of fire on a range? Or informally with a mate in the field using a stopwatch? I reckon that Snoxall's performance would take some matching with a 7.62 SLR and a spare loaded magazine. Or am I just a slow shot?

 

Ric

[Yokel Matt 918]

I bet the barrel was cherry red after that!

[The one 8,467]

But unless your target shooting whats the point??

[RicW 67]

But unless your target shooting whats the point??

 

The context was shooting rabbits when you can have a field full and they don't dive straight down at the first shot, and speed of making a second shot if you don't get a clean drop with the first. Or of course if you're in a trench and Jerry's coming at you mob-handed! I agree it's not directly relevant to field shooting but I asked out of curiosity!

Ric

[waidmann 105]

that is very fast,the guy was trained and obviously well to become an instructor.

i have never tried my rate of fire against the clock( only with bunnys) but i would be nowhere near that i'm sure.

one round a second at that range even with self loading would not be easy for people not used to recoil.

but i guess thats why its still a record after so many years.

[harrygrey382 1]

But unless your target shooting whats the point??

There are so many things in life that are pointless I think that comment is certainly one of them. But to answer your question, how about fun? Or interest?

 

To the OP - I've read that a few times, but it never ceases to amaze me. Man I would love to watch something like that, at even half that rate of fire from a bolter. I guess the barrel must have been pretty warm, but abviously it didn't effect accuracy THAT much

 

I seem to recall some pretty quick bolt work at Bisly quite a while ago. The shooter never let go of the bolt with his thumb and forefinger, while pulling the trigger with his pinky. I'm guessing this would be a lot harder with a mauser action

Edited September 30, 2009 by harrygrey382

[PAC1 0]

But unless your target shooting whats the point??

There are so many things in life that are pointless I think that comment is certainly one of them. But to answer your question, how about fun? Or interest?

 

To the OP - I've read that a few times, but it never ceases to amaze me. Man I would love to watch something like that, at even half that rate of fire from a bolter. I guess the barrel must have been pretty warm, but abviously it didn't effect accuracy THAT much

 

I seem to recall some pretty quick bolt work at Bisly quite a while ago. The shooter never let go of the bolt with his thumb and forefinger, while pulling the trigger with his pinky. I'm guessing this would be a lot harder with a mauser action

 

When training with the infantry, I always remember the Colour Sergeant telling us that 12 accurately aimed shots at 150m was what he was after for well trained troops. That is, 12 shots all within a 6 inch group, equating to one every 5 seconds. Of course that was with a semi-auto too, but for us mere mortals, that seemed to be a reasonable guide and still today I can't ever see a situation where you'd need to better that in the hunting field. You might want to shoot 20 bunnies per minute, but what exactly is the point?

 

Interestingly, during the 100 years war with France, it is documented that the English Bowmen were trained to loose off (you've guessed it) 12 arrows per minute against the advancing enemy and a master bowman could drop his mark every time from 150 yds.

[RicW 67]

 

I fully appreciate that the ability to fire 40 odd aimed rounds in 60 seconds is of no relevance to sporting shooters and only peripherally of interest to range shooting, no more than an interesting way to spend a lot of money in a very short time. But as I said above, the ability to get off a second shot in minimum time is of value in the field. If you are shooting rabbits for pest control being able to clean kill 3 or 4 before they bolt(!) is useful, and if you are shooting fox or deer a fast second shot if your first fails to drop your quarry gives a humane ability to minimise suffering. There is one regular contributor to this forum who uses a semi-auto 22lr for just those reasons, and has stated that he would use semi-auto centrefire it it were legal so to do.

 

It is worth noting, I think, that many big game hunters prefer double barrelled rifles over bolt-action because the ability to double-tap ensures a clean kill, and if you wound a lion or cape buffalo with your first shot you have a lot better chance of surviving to tell the tale if you have a fast second shot with a squeeze of the trigger. Never mind humane aspects a wounded lion can still cover 50 yards in under 2 seconds.

 

You don't need to be one of the wealthy Arab "hunters" who shoot gazelle with AK47s from a helicopter to understand that point.

 

Harry - you are right about the Mauser action. The Lee action is by far the fastest of the turn-bolts. Straight-pull bolts are even faster, but the Lee magazine, with 10 round capacity, gave it the edge for military use. Also the rear position of the locking lugs placed the bolt handle directly above the trigger, allowing that ungainly looking technique you describe to work.

 

For the record some of us are interested in guns, and in all aspects of shooting, for their own sake. Look at all the threads about muzzle velocity and energy. Who cares so long as it does the job? I just plain like to understand what's going on, OK?

 

Ric

[PAC1 0]

 

I fully appreciate that the ability to fire 40 odd aimed rounds in 60 seconds is of no relevance to sporting shooters and only peripherally of interest to range shooting, no more than an interesting way to spend a lot of money in a very short time. But as I said above, the ability to get off a second shot in minimum time is of value in the field. If you are shooting rabbits for pest control being able to clean kill 3 or 4 before they bolt(!) is useful, and if you are shooting fox or deer a fast second shot if your first fails to drop your quarry gives a humane ability to minimise suffering. There is one regular contributor to this forum who uses a semi-auto 22lr for just those reasons, and has stated that he would use semi-auto centrefire it it were legal so to do.

 

It is worth noting, I think, that many big game hunters prefer double barrelled rifles over bolt-action because the ability to double-tap ensures a clean kill, and if you wound a lion or cape buffalo with your first shot you have a lot better chance of surviving to tell the tale if you have a fast second shot with a squeeze of the trigger. Never mind humane aspects a wounded lion can still cover 50 yards in under 2 seconds.

 

You don't need to be one of the wealthy Arab "hunters" who shoot gazelle with AK47s from a helicopter to understand that point.

 

Harry - you are right about the Mauser action. The Lee action is by far the fastest of the turn-bolts. Straight-pull bolts are even faster, but the Lee magazine, with 10 round capacity, gave it the edge for military use. Also the rear position of the locking lugs placed the bolt handle directly above the trigger, allowing that ungainly looking technique you describe to work.

 

For the record some of us are interested in guns, and in all aspects of shooting, for their own sake. Look at all the threads about muzzle velocity and energy. Who cares so long as it does the job? I just plain like to understand what's going on, OK?

 

Ric

 

Fair comments, and the question now understood in the context you originally asked for. Personally, I'd rate the ability to hit the right mark first time every time, so never take a shot I'm not certain about. Of course there's times when this doesn't always go to plan, but in those circumstances, you don't need to be superfast to finish the job. As to a lion bearing down 50 yds and nanno seconds, we don't have any in Gloucestershire

[Mr_Logic 5]

The Lee Enfield action is easy to shoot fast and accurately, I was out shooting with my brother in the US, we spent an afternoon blatting pumpkins with his Indian .308 Lee Enfield. Not in the record leagues I'll grant you, but I sent down 10 accurate aimed shots at 100 yards no real problem. 150gr SPs made a hell of a mess of the pumpkin, too!

[Blacksheep 6]

The Lee Enfield action is easy to shoot fast and accurately, I was out shooting with my brother in the US, we spent an afternoon blatting pumpkins with his Indian .308 Lee Enfield. Not in the record leagues I'll grant you, but I sent down 10 accurate aimed shots at 100 yards no real problem. 150gr SPs made a hell of a mess of the pumpkin, too!

 

Just watched that "world war 1 in colour" the other night , and it was showing our troops firing Enfields over the top of the trenches

you could see 4 lads in a line all furiously working their bolts and putting down a hell of a rate of fire , would'nt have wanted to be on the recieving end of that !.

[RicW 67]

 

Fair comments, and the question now understood in the context you originally asked for. Personally, I'd rate the ability to hit the right mark first time every time, so never take a shot I'm not certain about. Of course there's times when this doesn't always go to plan, but in those circumstances, you don't need to be superfast to finish the job. As to a lion bearing down 50 yds and nanno seconds, we don't have any in Gloucestershire

 

Not unless you believe what you read in the redtops! Mind, the world record wild boar was shot in Herefordshire. It weighed 580 lbs. I don't know about you, but if I faced 5 hundredweight of seriously pissed-off pig coming at me at 20mph I'd be glad of a fast second shot!

 

Ric

[Catcher 1 639]

 

Fair comments, and the question now understood in the context you originally asked for. Personally, I'd rate the ability to hit the right mark first time every time, so never take a shot I'm not certain about. Of course there's times when this doesn't always go to plan, but in those circumstances, you don't need to be superfast to finish the job. As to a lion bearing down 50 yds and nanno seconds, we don't have any in Gloucestershire

 

Not unless you believe what you read in the redtops! Mind, the world record wild boar was shot in Herefordshire. It weighed 580 lbs. I don't know about you, but if I faced 5 hundredweight of seriously pissed-off pig coming at me at 20mph I'd be glad of a fast second shot!

 

Ric

 

 

So you drank in the Ashley too Sorry mate couldent resist.atb. Catcher

[RicW 67]

 

Fair comments, and the question now understood in the context you originally asked for. Personally, I'd rate the ability to hit the right mark first time every time, so never take a shot I'm not certain about. Of course there's times when this doesn't always go to plan, but in those circumstances, you don't need to be superfast to finish the job. As to a lion bearing down 50 yds and nanno seconds, we don't have any in Gloucestershire

 

Not unless you believe what you read in the redtops! Mind, the world record wild boar was shot in Herefordshire. It weighed 580 lbs. I don't know about you, but if I faced 5 hundredweight of seriously pissed-off pig coming at me at 20mph I'd be glad of a fast second shot!

 

Ric

 

 

So you drank in the Ashley too Sorry mate couldent resist.atb. Catcher

Abbott's Green King is the FINEST ALE IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. If you disagree I'll see you in the car park.

Ric