The Working Border Terrier Club

[PICK AND SHOVEL 4]

Good to see the mainly positive comments coming through as regards to the Border Terrier and the formation of the Working Border Terrier Club....The club will exist as stated to promote and improve the Borders ability as a TRUE working terrier.....As regards to standards I'm sure we all know what a Border Terrier should look like. More importantly the first line of the standard states....The Border Terrier is essentially a Working Terrier....That statement has to be at the core of the club and not the price of pups. My thoughts on Kennel Club recognition is as i stated on the top of the first page...My preference is to move away from registration and so bring the price of Border pups down making them more affordable to the working man. The main driving force behind Registering Borders is a purely financial one. Anyone more interested in the working side of things will not have the same motive. Lets face it a lot of the Pedigrees are not as credible as they may appear and a lot of them contain some manufactured registrations. If you feel an importance for a pedigree then so be it as long as the reason is not financial...You don't need a pedigree to go out and work your terriers and you don't need one to enter your terriers in a class at a hunt or working show. However you do need one if you are to ask £400 FOR A PUP !!!!

I look forward to receiving the first memberships and will send out membership cards as soon as i can...On a personal note i attended the N.W.T.F Championship at Ragley Hall at the weekend and had a great day mixing with old friends and making a few new ones. Very fitting that my long term and very good friend Mr Mick Mills was chosen to be judge on this the 25th Anniversary show...Well Done to all involved.

i cant understand why all the fuss about the price of border terriers is constanty brought up so what if there kc reg if you think there to much money go get a pat or russel some things are more expensive than others thats life. i register mine if i sell a couple of pups and make a few quid so what iam not going to give them away to every tom dick and harry iam more interested in the working side but i kc reg mine does that make me more interested in the financial side?its like you right books for the love of it not for a finacial 1 IAM SURE!!! why not drop the price of your books so more working lads can afford them darcy dont charge nearly 40 quid with p&p 1500 books 34 quid each=51 grand. your not going to make pups cheaper just because there's a club for border terriers just stateing a fact.

 

That's where you're wrong...why should a Border pup from a working background cost as much as 3 times more than a Patterdale or Russell pup? Is this due to the cost involved in registration...the answer is...NO!!! 'If you feel an importance for a pedigree then so be it as long as the reason is not financial...' That's what I said. You said 'if you think there to much money go get a pat or Russell some things are more expensive than others that's life' That's the kind of attitude that has led to the Working Border's demise. I'm sorry if bringing the price down to a reasonable figure effects your profit margins, but THAT'S LIFE!!!

 

As far as the book goes, you get what you pay for, in most cases. With my book being no exception to this. In your calculation you did not account for the time and initial out lay for producing such a quality item. As long as you keep selling your Borders for ££££'s then you should be in a strong position to purchase one or two of my planned further publications. Unlike my book, which is guaranteed to satisfy the same cannot be said of a working terrier pup, as we all have our failures no matter how careful the selection of foundation stock has been. This is an expensive exercise for anyone that has the misfortune to purchase a Border pup that as an adult does not produce the goods. Yet another good reason to put a cap on the price asked for such a pup. 'iam more interested in the working side' you say, well if you are then you will be joining the club and agreeing to cap the price of your pups to other members for the sake of the future of the Working Border. Unfortunately this will effect your profit margins, but surely that's a small price to pay if the working side of the breed is what you're driven by.

cant understand why your so concerned about the price of pups all of a sudden it was only before xmas that you contacted me and when i told you there could be a pup spare out of 2 first class digging borders going spare .you not me said you would pay 400 500 for a pup money was not an issue.as luck would have it the pups all died so i said i would let you no next time i had pups .you asked to swap 1 of your pups for 1 of ours but i said no as we didnt need 1 we had enough young stock to get going and we are happy with the strain we have got and how they work so why bring in pups we dont no nothing about.if it was all about money then we could have sold dogs for good money the dog in the post working the fox is going to a freind of ours for the season to be worked along side his good working border bitch.it was only 3 weeks ago when i had a phone call offering me 900 for the dog if it was all about money then the dog would have been gone soon after the phone call.as for your book my sister in law works in a publishers so i have a rough idea what they cost to make and iam not surprised your writeing another book them barn conversions dont come cheap. theres one reason you wrote a book££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ you can dress it up all you like but thats the be all and end all. 2nd book on the way £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ working border club £££££££££££££££££££££££ like i say barn conversions dont come cheap. theres loads of lads out there with pictures of digging foxes when they were kids me included.how come your books are twice the price of others are they twice as good who nos.good look with your club i wish you all the best i think il just sit on the fence good luck

 

Indeed we did speak...Dont recall saying money was not a problem??? Do remember saying we could work something out as regards to exchanging a pup.

For some reason it seems to me that your nose has been put out of joint...so you have spat your dummy out....For the record i have no problem with registered Borders as long as they Work and are affordable to the working man.

I do recall you saying you could not work your terriers as often as you would like due to being restrained by an incident that occurred...Stones in glass houses and all that...What you need to realise is that your not the only person who works Borders mate and you don't have a monopoly on them...What i do and how i do it is to be honest nothing to do with you..I suggest you smooth those ruffled feathers....You sit on the fence mate best place for ya with the negative attitude and assumptions about myself. Not quite sure why you have a problem with me but i wont be loosing any sleep over it..££££...Oh yeah money and Envy....Don't suppose your sister in law can do me a discount on my next book then.

[Shamo 319]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

[Alaunt 4]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

If you have tried for years,you must really want one,if i really wanted something i would pay the price,this is the same problem that keeps cropping up,there has been a set price paid for borders for years,so why should the man who has worked even harder to keep a working line going sell his cheaper,than those who keep them as pets,surely he is entitled to the same money

[donnyc 1,203]

So what is the average price for a KC pup out of working parents???

[MOO 730]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

If you have tried for years,you must really want one,if i really wanted something i would pay the price,this is the same problem that keeps cropping up,there has been a set price paid for borders for years,so why should the man who has worked even harder to keep a working line going sell his cheaper,than those who keep them as pets,surely he is entitled to the same money

some people just dont get it and never will ....funny how its a alaunt owner that wrote that

[6868 0]

dont know about average i enquired about two litters on here about 3/4 years back when looking for pups 1 lot were £350 the other from derby wanted £400 like shamo i said to the derby lad how much if you keep the papers and breeding he said £400.not looked at a border litter since.

[donnyc 1,203]

Oh thats why Im skint then

[Alaunt 4]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

If you have tried for years,you must really want one,if i really wanted something i would pay the price,this is the same problem that keeps cropping up,there has been a set price paid for borders for years,so why should the man who has worked even harder to keep a working line going sell his cheaper,than those who keep them as pets,surely he is entitled to the same money

some people just dont get it and never will ....funny how its a alaunt owner that wrote that

I tried the alaunt but it didnt suit,maybe i will get my user name changed to please you,yes some people will never get it,you included

[The Breeder 156]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

If you have tried for years,you must really want one,if i really wanted something i would pay the price,this is the same problem that keeps cropping up,there has been a set price paid for borders for years,so why should the man who has worked even harder to keep a working line going sell his cheaper,than those who keep them as pets,surely he is entitled to the same money

some people just dont get it and never will ....funny how its a alaunt owner that wrote that

I tried the alaunt but it didnt suit,maybe i will get my user name changed to please you,yes some people will never get it,you included

John i think you have shot your self in the foot markp and his friends in my opinion have the best working pedigree border line in the country you need men like them in the club. they have not got the odd one or two working borders, but kennel fulls of them. can anybody show me any other line of working border? has anybody got the oxcroft line of working border? lots of people talk about having this line but where are they on this tread? and do they work to the same standard as markp - bitches and dogs? as for the price of pups, i don't think any club should dictate to its members how much a pup should be sold for, that should be between the seller and buyer. if a terrier man wants this line of terrier, he must pay the going rate and markp don't sell his pups for £400 -£500. i think the pics that have been put up by markp would bring a smile to the faces of levi and ray walker, where ever they may be!!!!!

[Alaunt 4]

I have tried for years to get hold of a well bred Border, from well used tested stuff, with BOTH Parents having done some REAL graft. It has been the 'Holy Grail' and still chasing. No point getting into names, just leads to denials and chinese whispers. I refuse to pay the rediculous prices people ask for Pups with Papers, so have asked for Pups without. The usual answer has been "why would I sell you a Pup half price, with no papers, when I can get full price easily enough". That has been the attitude of nearly all the breeders, or close to it. That is why the Border is in the shitter, as a true working Terrier. Just my opinion

If you have tried for years,you must really want one,if i really wanted something i would pay the price,this is the same problem that keeps cropping up,there has been a set price paid for borders for years,so why should the man who has worked even harder to keep a working line going sell his cheaper,than those who keep them as pets,surely he is entitled to the same money

some people just dont get it and never will ....funny how its a alaunt owner that wrote that

I tried the alaunt but it didnt suit,maybe i will get my user name changed to please you,yes some people will never get it,you included

John i think you have shot your self in the foot markp and his friends in my opinion have the best working pedigree border line in the country you need men like them in the club. they have not got the odd one or two working borders, but kennel fulls of them. can anybody show me any other line of working border? has anybody got the oxcroft line of working border? lots of people talk about having this line but where are they on this tread? and do they work to the same standard as markp - bitches and dogs? as for the price of pups, i don't think any club should dictate to its members how much a pup should be sold for, that should be between the seller and buyer. if a terrier man wants this line of terrier, he must pay the going rate and markp don't sell his pups for £400 -£500. i think the pics that have been put up by markp would bring a smile to the faces of levi and ray walker, where ever they may be!!!!!

Well said,this will be my last post on this subject,i have been in contact with Markp and he doesnt charge anything like some,he knows what he is doing with the breed and if i was starting a club for the benefit of working borders i would want him on board

[pattstaff 157]

First off I would like to say Im glad John is getting of his arse and doing something about the state Borders in general are in,good on you fella.Hes taking some flak for it too,in life its only the people who do nothing that cant be judged or ridiculed and this post has brought the armchair experts out in there droves.I hope he doesnt take on board the opinions of too many and sticks too his own vision because theres an old saying that "A camel is a horse designed by a commitee" if you get my drift. I dont know this guy personally so Im not defending a friend here,Im sure this fella is fully capable,but I dont agree with the heat hes taking for making money of his book. Being an author is a job like any other,for you who get up in the morning to go to the office or building site your as interested in the pound as your making him out to be.If i asked you to plaster my house for free and for the love of plastering youd tell me to go f*ck myself. Personally I thought the book was a bit rough in price and postage and said so at the time but I didnt have to buy it and cant argue with the fact that the guy should be paid back for his work and efforts.I dont have borders any more myself but would join this club just to support it and hope it suceeds.Just dont overcook the goose!

[Guest sparky]

Good to see the mainly positive comments coming through as regards to the Border Terrier and the formation of the Working Border Terrier Club....The club will exist as stated to promote and improve the Borders ability as a TRUE working terrier.....As regards to standards I'm sure we all know what a Border Terrier should look like. More importantly the first line of the standard states....The Border Terrier is essentially a Working Terrier....That statement has to be at the core of the club and not the price of pups. My thoughts on Kennel Club recognition is as i stated on the top of the first page...My preference is to move away from registration and so bring the price of Border pups down making them more affordable to the working man. The main driving force behind Registering Borders is a purely financial one. Anyone more interested in the working side of things will not have the same motive. Lets face it a lot of the Pedigrees are not as credible as they may appear and a lot of them contain some manufactured registrations. If you feel an importance for a pedigree then so be it as long as the reason is not financial...You don't need a pedigree to go out and work your terriers and you don't need one to enter your terriers in a class at a hunt or working show. However you do need one if you are to ask £400 FOR A PUP !!!!

I look forward to receiving the first memberships and will send out membership cards as soon as i can...On a personal note i attended the N.W.T.F Championship at Ragley Hall at the weekend and had a great day mixing with old friends and making a few new ones. Very fitting that my long term and very good friend Mr Mick Mills was chosen to be judge on this the 25th Anniversary show...Well Done to all involved.

i cant understand why all the fuss about the price of border terriers is constanty brought up so what if there kc reg if you think there to much money go get a pat or russel some things are more expensive than others thats life. i register mine if i sell a couple of pups and make a few quid so what iam not going to give them away to every tom dick and harry iam more interested in the working side but i kc reg mine does that make me more interested in the financial side?its like you right books for the love of it not for a finacial 1 IAM SURE!!! why not drop the price of your books so more working lads can afford them darcy dont charge nearly 40 quid with p&p 1500 books 34 quid each=51 grand. your not going to make pups cheaper just because there's a club for border terriers just stateing a fact.

 

That's where you're wrong...why should a Border pup from a working background cost as much as 3 times more than a Patterdale or Russell pup? Is this due to the cost involved in registration...the answer is...NO!!! 'If you feel an importance for a pedigree then so be it as long as the reason is not financial...' That's what I said. You said 'if you think there to much money go get a pat or Russell some things are more expensive than others that's life' That's the kind of attitude that has led to the Working Border's demise. I'm sorry if bringing the price down to a reasonable figure effects your profit margins, but THAT'S LIFE!!!

 

As far as the book goes, you get what you pay for, in most cases. With my book being no exception to this. In your calculation you did not account for the time and initial out lay for producing such a quality item. As long as you keep selling your Borders for ££££'s then you should be in a strong position to purchase one or two of my planned further publications. Unlike my book, which is guaranteed to satisfy the same cannot be said of a working terrier pup, as we all have our failures no matter how careful the selection of foundation stock has been. This is an expensive exercise for anyone that has the misfortune to purchase a Border pup that as an adult does not produce the goods. Yet another good reason to put a cap on the price asked for such a pup. 'iam more interested in the working side' you say, well if you are then you will be joining the club and agreeing to cap the price of your pups to other members for the sake of the future of the Working Border. Unfortunately this will effect your profit margins, but surely that's a small price to pay if the working side of the breed is what you're driven by.

 

P and S

you state "unlike my book, which is guaranteed to satisfy"

does that mean i can have my money back ?

[deadlock 0]

Just seeing a few pics of borders working doesn't prove a thing iv seen borders look good many years ago but only because they had another border behind it!!!!!

Those who are quibbling about the price of border i would take note of them as they are mainly interested in making good coin rather than the state of borders as real workers IMO

[Waz 4,252]

P and S

you state "unlike my book, which is guaranteed to satisfy"

does that mean i can have my money back ?

 

guaranteed

noun

1.a promise or assurance, esp. one in writing, that something is of specified quality, content, benefit, etc., or that it will perform satisfactorily for a given length of time: a money-back guarantee.

 

P&S if the answer is yes, put me down for a refund.

Edited August 28, 2009 by GD Waz

[The Breeder 156]

Just seeing a few pics of borders working doesn't prove a thing iv seen borders look good many years ago but only because they had another border behind it!!!!!

Those who are quibbling about the price of border i would take note of them as they are mainly interested in making good coin rather than the state of borders as real workers IMO

sorry mate but i have this line of WORKING border and thay are good WORKERS - NEVER twos up, you might though mate? but not markp or the lads he works them with ask john he would like a pup out of this line Edited August 28, 2009 by The Breeder