Retrieving AGAIN

[smallmouth 1]

I’ve raised retrieving questions from time to time on the various sites, and picked up various tips. Apologies to all those who've read all this before, but I'm still struggling on, and it's a slow process when trying to avoid sickening the dog of carrying.

 

I have a 1st cross Border Collie X Greyhound bitch that’s been through the usual training and stock steadying routine, and is generally pretty obedient in normal circumstances.

 

At 21 month old I don’t train her for the sake of it, more to provide mental stimulation.

 

She particularly enjoys retrieving work, and so do I. But there’s a problem. She’ll bring in a dummy, or back track to find one, from great distances, or short distances, even across water,

….but often she’ll stop out of reach, sometimes 10 - 20 yards out of reach, and either mess about or stand and look. If I use a narrow lane or a bridge, I get the dummy in my hand, though she’ll steam past me if she can.

 

For an example……..The day before yesterday I was on a very large piece of open land, in the middle of the longest flat horse racing track in England. I dropped her to a down stay, and walked off into the distance, the undulations making it a blind stay half the time. It was over 400 paces to a small brick tower and there I planted the dummy, then walked back. The whole process took a fair while, and as usual, she never even crept in even a little bit, (I know this cos as usual I planted a small twig to gauge this).

 

Calling her to heel, she stood tensed like a sheepdog waiting for the outrun.

 

 

Then I said “fetch” and off she sped in a wide semicircle to the right. The reason for the semi circle was there was a very blustery wind blowing, dragging any scent from left to right, and I reckon she uses my scent to track her way to the dummy. After searching a while, (during which time she lost the scent a few times, stopping and looking back for directions), she found the dummy. And sped back to me straight as an arrow. The whole exercise must’ve taken at least 15 minutes for just the one blind retrieve…….and I was impressed……til as usual she continued on past, circling round, and then coming in but dropping it 5 yards short.

 

Yet walking round the estate last thing at night before bed, she’ll gather all manner of rubbish like fag packets, little twigs, lolly sticks leaves, a plastic pop bottle,

 

 

whatever’s lying about on the pavement, and press them right into my hand, totally unbidden.

 

 

I’ve tried all sorts, giving her things to carry while walking at heel on or off the lead, then taking them, giving them back, taking them. She won’t run off with the dummy from a heel command, she’ll carry it like a good ‘un. I’ve tried bridges and passages with good results. I’ve tried retrieving short distances on a line, to guide her right to hand, good results. I’ve tried resting her from retrieves for a couple of weeks, twice, then starting from scratch, made no difference.

 

I think this bitch knows perfectly well what I want.

 

(no, not this rotting trainer)

 

She also knows perfectly well the difference between retrieving on or off a line, and the difference between retrieving up a narrow gap or across a bridge,

 

as opposed to on open ground. On open ground she messes about, whether dummy or rabbit.

 

 

Brings it in eventually, very occasionally right to hand.

 

Maybe I'm a perfectionist, and what I'm after might be unachievable, but what I’d like is a reliable arrow straight delivery straight to hand, every time. But without resorting to force or locking her away from the influence of rest of the family when I’m not there.

 

Am I being unreasonable in what I'm trying to achieve?

 

I think I’ve tried all the obvious stuff, but please help if you have any suggestions.

[Stabs 3]

Sometimes mate, it's the dog, not you. Don't beat yourself over the head about it. I've got a collie cross as you know, and dummy's and toys are perfect. The real thing is different matter. It's left me scratching my head at times, yet I've trained a Stafford to a standard I'm happy with and I've got another dog picking up and bringing back no bother.

Just keep at it mate and you might get there. I'll do the same!

[Guest CharlieC]

sounds like you allready have an excellent retriever, your just looking for that wee bit extra perfection

I couldnt care two hoots if a dog doesnt put them in my hand every time, so long as theyr near enough to reach out and grab, and if not, well i only have to walk forward a few paces dont I?

 

If you want a gundog style presentation you have to train them to do this from an early age, you need to train them to come right to hand and hold the dummy until you tell them to leave. It possible with lots of time and patience and practice.

Learner and J Darcy would both be good people to ask, they have both trained dogs to a very high standard, and would probably be happy to help you. It sounds (and looks, from your pics) like you have a very good retriever there, so I really wouldnt worry yourself over it mate

 

Most of the pups I have trained will retrieve right back to hand in the early stages of training, but once entered to quarry, and even more so, once worked with other dogs, this goes out of the window a bit and the retrieves become sloppy. This doesnt bother me as Ive had the gundog style dogs, so I know Im capabel of training them to do it, but to keep them retrieving like this, you have to have a very close bond with the dog and not work it alongside other dogs to allow the jealousy to creep in, and no letting the kids throw tennis balls and stuff either as that will ruin a dog quicker than anything That said, other dogs will retrieve right up every time without fail, my beardie cross was a natural from day one, always brought it right up to me, never tried to go past or circle.

My Staff bitch is the same she will charge at me and press whatever shes holding at my leg or groin area (whichever she hits first ) and she will retrieve like that even if theres other dogs present. Theyre all different mate, some will be flashy retrievers that will come right to hand and sit in front of you and do the gundog bit, others will drop the rabbits a little shy of you, just persist with the training and make sure your not intimidating her in any way, some dogs can be funny about eye contact and body language when they reach those last few feet, I had a dog a few years ago who was very nervy and used to drop rabbits just shy of me, she drove me up the wall as a lot of times they were alive and would make their escape (nasty you remember that dog dont you? ) she would work fine for nastybilly, bring them right to hand, but she was scared to bring them to me if I gave her my direct stare (evil intimidating bitch that I am ) and always slunk up and then dropped them, I had to have her put down due to an injury but it was just as well cos she was easily the most irritating dog Ive ever owned!! (she is the same dog I mentioned on EDRD, the one that was poorly reared as a pup (NOT I hasten to add by me) and was never 100%) anyway, some dogs can be like that, you have to crouch down and encourage them, with your head averted, and this often encourages them to bring right to hand.

 

Other than this advice I have little to offer, Ive learned over the years that a good dog isnt always an obedient one, although its nice if you can get both, Ive seen dogs that had little more training than to jump and come back when called and they have been the best dogs Ive ever seen, and Ive seen obedience champions that sqeal like banshees, cock if the going gets too rough and cant hack the pace when it comes to serious work, so I would just congratulate yourself on having a nice looking dog that is doing well

 

If shes a good worker, f**k the retrieving, close by is better than not at all

[J Darcy 5,871]

having read the post...could it be possible for the bitch to think that she is playing some sort of game with you?....

what would happen if you just walked away fast?...

what would happen if you sent another dog near her?

would she drop the rabbit?...

will she walk on the lead with a rabbit????

will she walk at heal with a rabbit?

have you tried turning your back to her?...

just a few thoughts and queries.....good luck....

do you fancy a day fly fishing soon?

[moorman 0]

JD. Youve probably tried this but if not,when she stops 5 yards in front of you with the dummy turn your back on her and walk 5 yards or so away see if she follows.Its worked for me in the past.

[moorman 0]

Last post for smallmouth not JD sorry

[smallmouth 1]

I think Lamper and breeze will understand what I mean about her retrieving, she let herself down that night, maybe cos there was another dog present, but it wasn't in her face or owt, so....

 

If I run away fast, she follows, but usually stops short.

 

She'll certainly carry a rabbit on the lead, but when she actually catches a live one, it's usually in a place where it's a tad inconvenient to bugger about with training...... :ph34r: She's brought several rabbits right to hand. She's messed about with several more rabbits til they're a bit dead on delivery.

 

If there was another dog near her then she'd keep her distance from it. She's only properly worked in the presence of another dog once, and then it was managed well, taking turns lamping, so there was never an issue of 2 lurchers, 1 rabbit.

 

I think she IS playing a game, and the game is "possession".

 

I also agree I'm probably being a bit pernickety, but I'm not beating myself up too much over it, probably just that the pup that I first trained was a good quality GSD bitch, and she set the bar fairly high.

 

As for flyfishing, yes, I'll PM you.

[shaun v 3]

ignore her and walk away mate as darcy is saying she is messing with you, some dogs get hot blooded and forget who is in charge

[tiny tim 22]

my dog does exactly the same as yours but only does it if there is another dog present....even not as good when there is another person there.think she keeps a few yrds of so that if the dog comes near when she is close to me she can make a break for it and get away with the game.she is getting very jealous of game when other dogs are near.if i turn my back and walk back a bit she will come nearer but never nudging my hand like when we are on our own.never work with kids or animals they say because you are out in company they are bound to mess about

[LAMPER 0]

Smally...it seems from what you wrote that the Bitch is calling all the shots.

It is her who is determing wether a retrieve is coming to hand or not,and basicaly she has been teaching you a few things. By picking up things all by herself and then pressing them into you,it is her who is Saying "Throw this for us mate...i fancy a bit of fun now". I wouldn,t be suprised if this is done at home in the garden with that young Girl of yours,while your at work and its just something she has gone on to realy enjoy.

Next tme your out with her and she starts carrying things to you, try and stop it happening. If you see her about to pick something up,give her the leave command before she can. Also if she does manage to find something and has brought it in to you just ignore her,turn your back on her, or even actualy tell her NO and Drop. I know this may sound a bit weird as we all want to encourage our Dogs to use their mouths,but it is realy important now for you to decide when she can carry something and not her.

When you do decide you want to do a retrieve with her, i think you should start by doing what i call the Ambush retrieve . We need to find away of making it so the dog has not got time to realise she has brought the Dummy right in, before she actualy has,if you know what i mean. Try hiding around the corner of a hedge or through a gap into another field. Be across the other side of a ditch so once shes came through or jumped across your onto her and taking the dummy from her before she realises. Also make sure she cant go past us by either being in a corner or having our back against a hedge or something. Think long and hard about where your doing you retrieves and try and force her into bringing it into you closer. Id take my time aswell and only do a couple a week, giving plenty of praise when successful. Id also have a word with them at home and tell them not to play any games with her,and if she does bring someting to them to just take it off her and forget about it.

I dont think there will be a problem mate...just take your time and be patient. Its just a matter of making her realise retrieveing can be fun, even the way you want it to be done.

 

Hope this helps and best of luck ... Lamps

[Guest CharlieC]

very good advice from lamper there, especially the bit about the ambush retrieve

It does look from the pictures like shes having a lot of fun retrieving, so I wouldnt worry too much about it. Crouching down, walking away, and even running off can be good ways to get her attention focussed on you, when your out and about, as Lamper says, hide every once in a while and make her come and seek you out, it will make her concerntrate on you a lot more - she wont know if or when your going to disappear, and of course when she does retrieve right to hand, effusive praise works wonders.

 

If shes doing the biz thats all that really matters, I used to think obedience was paramount when I first started out with lurchers. At one point I trained a collie cross to a really high standard of obedience with the intention of competing in the field trials, but then I judged at one of the events, and I found that personally, I look for working ability more than I do obedience, the dogs that were doing gundog style retrieves and obedience moves were not infact the best dogs at catching, and when I analysed my own dog, he was definately not the best dog Ive ever had and his catch rate was not as high as dogs Ive had since, some of which have been as obedient, some havent.

 

Just enjoy your dog and focus on her working ability, After all, that is probably 99% of what a lurcher is all about, if a dog is a good worker, its easier to forgive any small shortcomings they might have, no dog is perfect

[smallmouth 1]

Well thanks for the advice all, there's a few things to think about, and some to try, in your responses.

 

Lamper you hit the nail on the head saying she's often calling the retrieving shots, I've tried the ignoring, but not active discouragement yet, but I certainly will now.

 

I've certainly tried "ambush" and "back to the wall" retrieves, but as someone once said of collie lurchers, ...."the brains of a man and the ways of a woman"......she's wise to most of my tricks now.

 

I'm certainly enjoying my lurcher Charlie, though as you said elsewhere, they can have you tearing your hair out, (well not in my case, I'd have to tear my tash out LOL).

 

I'm not a fan of "square bashing" style training, but I just like to do the best I can. If that ends up being a bit less than perfect, I'll still be happy enough just to have a lurcher at all.

[Guest LEARNER]

SOME WERE ALONG THE LINE ,YOU,VE LET THE DOG TAKE CONTROL, NEVER REPEAT NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN.

[Guest tommo]

SOME WERE ALONG THE LINE ,YOU,VE LET THE DOG TAKE CONTROL, NEVER REPEAT NEVER LET THIS HAPPEN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just walk away she probobly taking the p--s

[smallmouth 1]

Well I asked for advice and I got plenty of it, so here’s an update....

 

I’ve started ignoring her impromptu retrieves, and telling her to “leave” sundry objects. She was a bit confused and sulky over this, and is still apt to do it to try and get attention, but I’ll persevere.

 

When it comes to the actual retrieve training, the positioning technique that’s worked very well with this bitch over the last 3 weeks or so has been the “back to the hedge” trick. Because she does tends to come back with the dummy at a fair lick and this often results in her steaming past me. With a nice prickly hawthorn behind, she learned after the first time to come in a bit slower!

 

She still tries to circle round, but due to the hedge this results in her being level with me, but about 5-10 yards down, then it’s just a case of calling her in. Still plenty of room for improvement, but it’s early days yet...and slow going now that I’ve really cut the retrieves back, (again).

 

 

I think another mistake I made was in combining too many different commands into one exercise. Because I was always doing long distance blind stays etc, as part of hiding a dummy and then returning to send her on, maybe I was reinforcing the idea that the dummy was her reward for obeying all the other commands?

 

I now do the other stuff separately most times. I think I’ll also change the dummies to try and break the association with the dummy as a reward. I was shown an interesting idea in somebody’s yard recently, a rabbit skin round a paint roller. As well as being very neat, no loose ends to trigger ragging and ripping, it was light enough to offer a dog very little leverage/momentum to get the fur off.

 

Finally..........My daughter accompanied me on a recent walk, and part of the route was over some waste ground where she often takes her for a bit of a stretch after school. It was here that I observed the “bottle game”, which involves alternately kicking 2 plastic bottles along the ground for the bitch to chase.....as soon as she picks up one bottle, the other is kicked in an opposite direction.......“but Daaaad….it’s not a retrieving game, so I thought it would be OK.....”

 

Cheers for all the advice anyway.......