daft topic

[the_stig 6,614]

Jesus are you for real there shud b a seperate class for with lakelands, well a bet you'll not be in the working class

whys that then nixy you sayin white lakelands dont work i`ve kept and bred them for 30yr davies/gould plenty of lads on here will tell you mine graft .. i threw the seperate class for lakelands in just to see if anyone took the bait i stopped showing years ago but when i did i won just about every major show going during the 80s and early 90s and plenty of entered classes along the way ...

Hey what's the difference between a pat and a plummer :oops: I've done it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Christ we must be bored!!! Sooner the digging season starts the better

whats a plummer

[the_stig 6,614]

I think its more down to long hair coat but am prob wrong but i'd like to know myself

here goes flack jacket and tin helmet at the ready -- the saying goes that the patterdale is named after a village in cumbria where the type of terrier where promident .. the fell terrier name has been around since the late 1700 early 1800s the patterdale name was derieved in the 1950s .. brey/buck and later nuttall developed the patterdale type further . patts are usauly know for havin a smooth coat ... other breeders added bull to get the type of terrier ....

[Stabs 3]

Patterdale was just another name for the Lakeland Terrier, just like Reedwater was another name for the Border.

The way I see it is the Patterdale and the Lakie are just types of Fell Terrier, a catch-all term that encompasses a few types.

[the_stig 6,614]

patterdale terrier refers to some bodys terrier at paterdale,just like someone saying i put my bitch to that coniston dog,then someone thought we will use that name patterdale on our black terriers to make a few quid out of our pups,same hapening today with lurchers and terriers it will allways happen because there is more idiots with these type of dog than any other,wonder if we will ever get white borders.

when did all this happen then fred i wonder who that someone was thought up of the name patterdale just to make a few quid ..white borders you never know a lot of patterdales came from a well known midlands breeder in the 60s 70s with staff in them they worked and looked the part feck all to do with patterdale cumbria look at some the lakelands that are winning shows today and you will see pedigree kc lakie coming through alot of breeders even way back late 70s eary 80s used all sorts of stuff to improve the looks of terriers for the show ring i know of russells types thats had border in thr breeding and even poodle to get the straighter legs on small russells purley for showing in what used to be the 9-12inch russell classes -- at the end of the day as we all know all working type terriers are crossbreds and nothing more - a few year ago i put a white lakie type russell over a red lakie crossbred type bitch the pups 7 in total whr 90% white a well known parson russell breeder /shower was after the whole litter to reg as kc parsons another parson russell breeder i know thr stud dog is a red lakeland - its not hard to con the kc - so what ever anyone says alls not what it seems in the terrier game - if you work em who really giz a feck -- Edited July 25, 2009 by the_stig

[james b 0]

From what ive heard the patterdale terrier is named after the station from which they were sold from in cumbria. the fell is a patterdale that was crossed with other breeds to make it harder. most people that no their digging stuff will no that they are diferent in temperment and apperance.

[samiibbz2k8 0]

fell were around long before patterdale!

in fact fell are a black lakeland way back!

[Stabs 3]

I haven't been to Patterdale since 1996 but I'm pretty sure there isn't and has never been a station there.

 

Are you saying that the Patterdale was the forerunner of the Fell? ie. the Patterdale was crossed with XYZ to create the Fell?

[james b 0]

I haven't been to Patterdale since 1996 but I'm pretty sure there isn't and has never been a station there.

 

Are you saying that the Patterdale was the forerunner of the Fell? ie. the Patterdale was crossed with XYZ to create the Fell?

Oh ya, how can you be so sure? does anyone actually know the full ancestry of either? istead of lads going by their own theory? and jumping down other lads necks when they express their own, if im so far off,prove and il stand corrected.

[Stabs 3]

I haven't been to Patterdale since 1996 but I'm pretty sure there isn't and has never been a station there.

 

Are you saying that the Patterdale was the forerunner of the Fell? ie. the Patterdale was crossed with XYZ to create the Fell?

Oh ya, how can you be so sure? does anyone actually know the full ancestry of either? istead of lads going by their own theory? and jumping down other lads necks when they express their own, if im so far off,prove and il stand corrected.

 

How can I be so sure of what?

[bigstu2008 9]

I haven't been to Patterdale since 1996 but I'm pretty sure there isn't and has never been a station there.

 

Are you saying that the Patterdale was the forerunner of the Fell? ie. the Patterdale was crossed with XYZ to create the Fell?

Oh ya, how can you be so sure? does anyone actually know the full ancestry of either? istead of lads going by their own theory? and jumping down other lads necks when they express their own, if im so far off,prove and il stand corrected.

just a quote

The border country of northern England and southern Scotland is a unique area that has given birth to several breeds of earth working terriers. The terrain is rugged, the weather harsh and the people tough. Life is primarily on remote farms with sheep being the main farm commodity, and for centuries, they have been protected from fox predation by aggressive hound and terrier work. Dogs suited to this inhospitable climate have weatherproof coats and may be larger than their southern cousins.

 

Patterdale terriers are native to the Lake District of northern England where the tall, bare and beautiful hills are called Fells. The weather is cold, wet and windy. The fells are steep, rocky and filled with foxes. Even 20th century farmers depend on organized fox-hound hunts to diminish the numbers of foxes that prey on their sheep, and the fox-hounds depend on fell terriers to extricate foxes from deep crevices in the rock.

 

The Fells are so rough that horses can not be used for hunting, so the Huntsman, his assistants, the hounds and terriers may cover miles walking on a mountainside in a day. The Huntsman and the Whipper in each keep a pair of terriers at their side to be instantly available when the fox goes to ground. Only the toughest of terriers can keep up all day, then go to earth and rout out a hill-fox under the worst of conditions. The Patterdale is that type of terrier. They are all of working terrier lineage and have a definite stamp of type. Fell and Patterdale Terriers are well known as hard-bitten terriers, willing to work any place, at any time.

 

While the Fell Terrier type has been known since the 1700s, it wasn’t until the early 1950s that the Patterdale Terrier had been developed as a breed as the result of the selective breeding efforts of two breeders, Cyril Breay and Frank Buck. During the 1960s, work by Brian Nuttall helped to further develop the breed.

 

In its country of origin, the Patterdale Terrier remains a working breed and is seldom shown. The first time that the Patterdale Terrier was recognized as a breed was actually in the United States when the Patterdale Terrier Club of America was founded in 1993. The United Kennel Club (UKC) accepted the breed on January 1, 1995.

[me1 99]

says it all really well said atb

[samiibbz2k8 0]

I haven't been to Patterdale since 1996 but I'm pretty sure there isn't and has never been a station there.

 

Are you saying that the Patterdale was the forerunner of the Fell? ie. the Patterdale was crossed with XYZ to create the Fell?

 

not XYZ but borders and lakies and bull there is a read on terrierman.com il try find it!

did you no nutall now uses black labrador in his lines!?

[Stabs 3]

Terrierman.com......

 

Is that Paddy Burns's site?

[samiibbz2k8 0]

Joe Bowman's Patterdale

 

 

 

Joe Bowman, the Ullswater Huntsman, from Foxes, Foxhounds & Foxhunting

by Richard Clapham, published in 1923.

 

 

Most of the folks that write books on dogs would like their breeds to be ancient and have romantic and mysterious origins. Pick up any book on Jack Russell Terriers, for example, and Trump will be presented as the first white foxing terrier on earth -- never mind that the young John Russell selected it for looks alone and had no problem finding another white foxing terrier to mate with it.

 

The Border Terrier folks have wrapped the story of their dog completely around the axle in an attempt to give it an ancient origin. In fact this breed was created at about the same time as the Kennel Club was created, and it was pulled on to the Kennel Club roles as quickly as could be.

 

As for the Patterdale Terrier, quite a few people claim one person or another created the dog, and yet all seem quite confused as to the shape of the head. Where did that come from?

 

In fact it is no mystery, and the true story of the Patterdale is not too deeply buried or very old.

 

In 1873, the Patterdale and Matterdale hunts were combined to form the Ullswater Foxhounds. In 1879 Joe Bowman (just 22 years old) was made master of the Ullswater, a position he held (with a few short interruptions) until 1924, when he was replaced by Joe Wear who held the position for then next 47 years. Joe Bowman died in 1940 -- one of the most famous huntsmen of all time (there is even a song about him)

 

Joe Bowman was an early Border Terrier breeder, and he was also the first person to cross up a blue-black Border Terrier with a black and tan Fell Terrier (also called a working Lakeland) to create what he called a Patterdale Terrier.

 

In Jocelyn Lucas' book, Hunt and Working Terriers, a table at the back notes that the United Hunt preferred a "Lakeland, Patterdale, from J. Boroman's strain (Ullswater kennels)."

 

In fact, "J. Boroman" is a typo, and the real man was Joe Bowman.

 

 

 

From Appendix II of Jocelyn Lucas' Hunt and Working Terriers (1931).

 

 

 

 

Lucas published his book in 1931, and the information in it was collected between 1925 and 1930. The Patterdale Terrier was clearly a type (if not a widely used type) by the 1920s, and it centered on the Ullswater Hunt and Joe Bowman.

 

With that knowledge, it was not too difficult a thing (but not too easy either!) to lay a hand on Foxes, Foxhounds & Foxhuning by Richard Clapham, published in 1923. Here we find not only a good picture of Joe Bowman (see top), but the picture reproduced below with caption. Click on the picture for a larger image.

 

 

 

 

"One of the 'Patterdale' breed."

Click on the picture for a larger version.

 

 

Now we can see that the Patterdale name goes back to at least the Nineteen-teens, a period just before the Border Terrier (which, like the Patterdale, started out as little more than what we would call today a Fell terrier today) was pulled into the show ring. To see what Border Terriers looked like in 1915, click here.

 

At about the time that Joe Bowman was fading out of the dog breeding business, in the 1930s, a young Cyril Breay was stepping up. Breay, like Bowman, had been a Border Terrier breeder.

 

In the early 1930s Breay met Frank Buck, when Buck rescued one of Breay's dogs that had gotten stuck in a deep rock cleft and Buck -- an expert at dynamite -- had blasted it free.

 

Bucks own line of dogs at the time were descended from Ullswater terriers kept by Joe Bowman, and Breay and Buck soon became fast friends with Breay breeding black dogs from Frank Buck into his line, and Buck crossing tight Border Terrier coats into his. Over time, the dogs of the two men devolved to a type as lines were crossed and condensed.

 

Cyril Breay was always adamant that the Patterdale Terrier was not made by crossing in Bull Terrier, and he was not lying. The Patterdale head is no mystery to a border terrier owner - the same broad cranial outlines are evident in both breeds.

 

Brian Nuttal began breeding Patterdales in the late 1950s, and says that his dogs are very much like those his father kept in the 1930s. It would not surprise me a bit to find that Nuttal's father got his dogs from Bowman, or from intervening hands that had gotten their dogs from Bowman. What is clear is that the Patterdale Terrier was already a recognized type by the time Nuttal's father owned his dogs.

 

The fact that Joe Bowman started the Patterdale strain and named it takes nothing away from folks like Cyril Breay, Frank Buck and Brian Nuttal, all of whom did quite a lot to popularize the breed, maintain it as a working dog, and perhaps improve and stabilize its looks. It is an easy thing to name a new breed (it's done every day by puppy peddlers), but quite another to find a market and a following for the dogs based on their performance in the field.

 

I mention all of this (I have told the story before and it is in the book), because I found a rather interesting old obituary on the internet the other day. Note the byline. With some amusement I note that "Greystoke Castle" was (supposedly) the ancestral home of Tarzan:

 

 

 

September 1956

PATTERDALE - One of Ullswaterside’s oldest residents, Mrs. Esther Pattinson, Broadhow, Patterdale, died at the age of 85. Formerly Miss Bowman, Matterdale, she hailed from a noted hunting family — her uncle was the celebrated Joe Bowman, huntsman of the Ullswater foxhounds for 42 years, while her great-grandfather, Joe Dawson, was for many years huntsman of the one-time Matterdale foxhounds. Mrs. Pattinson was only 13 years of age when she was hired as a farm girl, later working at Lyulph’s Tower for Mr. James Wood, who was agent for Lady Mabel Howard, Greystoke Castle.

 

 

 

In the end, it turns out that Joe Bowman was born in Patterdale -- a perfectly good reason for him to give a nod to the spot. It was, no doubt, an added bonus that Patterdale was also the old name of the Hunt that was both his employer and his passion. Finally, it should be noted that Patterdale was also the town where Joseph Dawson Bowman died, at the age of 88.

.

[samiibbz2k8 0]

Terrierman.com......

 

Is that Paddy Burns's site?

 

dont know!

its an american blog site!