Born Or Made?

[Neal 1,873]

I mean that I don't regard a dog used for ferreting as a second-rate occupation which is what I inferred from your description of it as "...just ferreting." Please avoid the offensive sarcasm as my use of a quote was certainly not intended to be offensive.

[gnasher16 30,220]

Been reading this thread with interest but havent felt qualified to give an opinion having never in my life bred any type of hunting dog !....however having bred many many sporting dogs over many years i feel theres perhaps not as many differences between a dog bred for specific sport and a dog bred to hunt as regards the nature vs nurture debate which has raged for years.

Im of the opinion that you cant have one without the other,if you dont carefully nurture a well bred dog he will never reach his full potential.....to me its all about getting the best from a dog regardless of his make up.....good breeding is nice.....if you breed dogs its essential,but if all you do is work dogs its not essential as if the dog doesnt work out you can just get another one,plenty of dogs with dubious breeding make great workers,likewise plenty of well bred dogs do not make the grade thats just the way nature works......no dogs produce great dogs all the time and no breeder produces great dogs all the time the idea is to produce the best you possibly can with the tools you have available......some people dont agree with inbreeding for working/sporting dogs....personally im a big fan if used correctly......i think some people are in too much of a rush they want great dogs from every breeding when the fact is sometimes you just have to breed a litter to make another litter especially when crossing dogs its a time consuming venture and a lot of people just dont have that patience and end up quitting on themself when it comes to breeding they buy what they think they are not producing themself when in reality all they really needed was a little faith and patience.

A good dog doesnt know he is a good dog same as a crap dog doesnt know he is crap that is a judgement we make based on the standards we set,hence the phrase one mans good dog is another mans cull.....

The phrase a dog can only be what he is genetically capable of being is correct to a degree,however freaks do occur,sometimes a dog performs far better than his breeding suggests he could......this type of dog can be a great dog but he will never be a great breeding dog because the breeding just isnt there.....too many times people breed a dog only based on the way that dog performs instead of what in his make up made him perform that way....expecting a genetic freak to produce another genetic freak is taking the piss......breeding well bred dogs is the right way to do things as you can predict more accurately what will come and make adjustments as necessary....but again,some people dont have the patience for this and would rather just buy a dog........and this is the type of person where nurture is so much more important than nature.

Just my daft ramblings anyway......nice interesting topic

[undisputed 1,664]

I mean that I don't regard a dog used for ferreting as a second-rate occupation which is what I inferred from your description of it as "...just ferreting." Please avoid the offensive sarcasm as my use of a quote was certainly not intended to be offensive.

 

I dont regard ferreting as a second rate pursuit....but the majority in here judge a dog on one aspect and thats it ability to kill certain quarry....my point was that even a so called shit dog has uses...such as ferreting....probably a death sentence to some dogs that these guys with their "high standards" have.

[undisputed 1,664]

The phrase a dog can only be what he is genetically capable of being is correct to a degree,however freaks do occur,sometimes a dog performs far better than his breeding suggests he could......this type of dog can be a great dog but he will never be a great breeding dog because the breeding just isnt there.....too many times people breed a dog only based on the way that dog performs instead of what in his make up made him perform that way....expecting a genetic freak to produce another genetic freak is taking the piss......breeding well bred dogs is the right way to do things as you can predict more accurately what will come and make adjustments as necessary....but again,some people dont have the patience for this and would rather just buy a dog........and this is the type of person where nurture is so much more important than nature.

Just my daft ramblings anyway......nice interesting topic thumbs.gif

 

 

I was more or less in agreement with you until the last paragraph...writing dogs of as genetic freaks because of dubious breeding is wrong.

 

I'll use Keano's old dog Gripper as an example. I bred this dog of my old whippet collie grey bitch to a full track grey. Now apart from running this greyhound had never done any other type of work. At the time I was more or less into rabbiting and a few hares with the occasional fox.....I decided to breed the bitch in her 3rd season as she had lost a knee-cap and I wanted a bigger and faster dog. Gripper's record speaks for it's self and the other remarkable about this dog was he had a fused knuckle on his front leg for most of his life having broke it at just over a year old. If we go on the worker to worker theory then all his hunting traits must have been inherited from the dam. Now if you reverse it the other way and put a half x dog over a grey bitch....the majority who are only used for racing is it then down to the sire....who has nowt to do with the litter after it's born. The way I see it is if both dogs are physically sound then you have a template for making a good dog regardless of breeding. Yes certain physical characteristics are inherited from parents just as they are with humans but in terms of working ability the dog has to be presented with the right opportunity at the right time. Experience is everything not breeding....put an experienced dog against an inexperienced dog of so called good breeding and there will be only one winner.....as with everything else in life there's the exception to the rule and no doubt a few will have them in here....but in the vast majority of folk with good dogs it'll be down to the work they've done with them.

[skycat 6,173]

Been reading this thread with interest and in my experience yes, whilst nurture is always VERY important, as iimportant as correct physical shape for the job, breeding is a lot more than just inheriting a particular size, shape or conformation.

 

I've been breeding my own 'line' or 'family' of lurchers for 20 years now and it is obvious that there is a huge amount of inherited traits both behaviourally and mentally (which are the same thing I suppose!)

 

Seeing the great grand pups of a certain dog display traits you saw in that ancestor is fascinating. To see a 6 month old pup creep through a hedge and stand scanning the field for rabbits, see a myxie rabbit wandering about, go out and catch that rabbit and retrieve it with no training, negotiating the 4 strand barbed wire fence set in the hedge on the way back with the rabbit as well.

 

Yes, of course there will be dogs of any type which can do that, but when all the ancestors have done it as well: right down to the certain way a pup holds its prey in its mouth, then it is obvious that these things are inherited.

 

Or shall I shoot myself in the foot now by saying that this pup will have been out in the field from 12 weeks old watching the older dogs, including its dam and grand dam do the exact same thing: maybe its not inherited after all but learned?

[riohog 5,721]

interesting thoughts there and inhereted traits can be good or bad traits

 

the idea being to breed out the bad bits is it natural or is it learnt!

 

i think one of the most inportant thing is the abilaty/capabilaty to learn

[gnasher16 30,220]

I was more or less in agreement with you until the last paragraph...writing dogs of as genetic freaks because of dubious breeding is wrong.

 

I'll use Keano's old dog Gripper as an example. I bred this dog of my old whippet collie grey bitch to a full track grey. Now apart from running this greyhound had never done any other type of work. At the time I was more or less into rabbiting and a few hares with the occasional fox.....I decided to breed the bitch in her 3rd season as she had lost a knee-cap and I wanted a bigger and faster dog. Gripper's record speaks for it's self and the other remarkable about this dog was he had a fused knuckle on his front leg for most of his life having broke it at just over a year old. If we go on the worker to worker theory then all his hunting traits must have been inherited from the dam. Now if you reverse it the other way and put a half x dog over a grey bitch....the majority who are only used for racing is it then down to the sire....who has nowt to do with the litter after it's born. The way I see it is if both dogs are physically sound then you have a template for making a good dog regardless of breeding. Yes certain physical characteristics are inherited from parents just as they are with humans but in terms of working ability the dog has to be presented with the right opportunity at the right time. Experience is everything not breeding....put an experienced dog against an inexperienced dog of so called good breeding and there will be only one winner.....as with everything else in life there's the exception to the rule and no doubt a few will have them in here....but in the vast majority of folk with good dogs it'll be down to the work they've done with them.

 

When we talk about what a dog has genetically inheritted we cant just look at the parents.....so many traits skip generations and resurface when you least expect them that you simply cant base genetic inheritance on parents alone.......ive seen dogs good that have inheritted literally nothing from their parents but are still great representatives of their line.......when i say dubious breeding i mean bred from dogs that genetically shouldnt have produced a dog of such quality but do....this is a rare thing you might do 5 breedings exactly the same produce 30 pups and only 1 is a top class dog.....this 1 dog is the genetic freak but people mistakingly use this type of dog to breed from because he is a great dog......to judge a dog as a genetic freak you need to know his whole background you cant just judge it from his parents.

To say as long as you have 2 healthy parents you have the template for making a good dog regardless of breeding is just plain wrong you cannot dismiss genetics as easy as that,if that was the case you would be able to get 2 strong healthy corgis and make a good hunting dog you cant because inherrited genetics wont allow that.....thats an extreme example i know but you probably get my meaning.

Of course a more experienced dog will be a better individual dog than an inexperienced well bred dog.....but a well bred dog with experience should be what everyone strives for or else why would people bother testing,breeding and raising dogs the best they can......if nurture/experience was all a dog needs then every dog has the capability to be good ........they dont !

[riohog 5,721]

yes we should look at several generations of dogs in a line not just the parants of a pup

 

 

has this line produced consistantly good dogs if it has its a fair bet it will continue complecated !! what halpens when the origional line becomes diluted through outcross not sure

 

the old way was breed tight and cull hard only keeping the very bestin the line perhaps the best way!!

[undisputed 1,664]

Been reading this thread with interest and in my experience yes, whilst nurture is always VERY important, as iimportant as correct physical shape for the job, breeding is a lot more than just inheriting a particular size, shape or conformation.

 

I've been breeding my own 'line' or 'family' of lurchers for 20 years now and it is obvious that there is a huge amount of inherited traits both behaviourally and mentally (which are the same thing I suppose!)

 

Seeing the great grand pups of a certain dog display traits you saw in that ancestor is fascinating. To see a 6 month old pup creep through a hedge and stand scanning the field for rabbits, see a myxie rabbit wandering about, go out and catch that rabbit and retrieve it with no training, negotiating the 4 strand barbed wire fence set in the hedge on the way back with the rabbit as well.

 

Yes, of course there will be dogs of any type which can do that, but when all the ancestors have done it as well: right down to the certain way a pup holds its prey in its mouth, then it is obvious that these things are inherited.

 

Or shall I shoot myself in the foot now by saying that this pup will have been out in the field from 12 weeks old watching the older dogs, including its dam and grand dam do the exact same thing: maybe its not inherited after all but learned?

 

 

Aye and theres the rub

[undisputed 1,664]

I was more or less in agreement with you until the last paragraph...writing dogs of as genetic freaks because of dubious breeding is wrong.

 

I'll use Keano's old dog Gripper as an example. I bred this dog of my old whippet collie grey bitch to a full track grey. Now apart from running this greyhound had never done any other type of work. At the time I was more or less into rabbiting and a few hares with the occasional fox.....I decided to breed the bitch in her 3rd season as she had lost a knee-cap and I wanted a bigger and faster dog. Gripper's record speaks for it's self and the other remarkable about this dog was he had a fused knuckle on his front leg for most of his life having broke it at just over a year old. If we go on the worker to worker theory then all his hunting traits must have been inherited from the dam. Now if you reverse it the other way and put a half x dog over a grey bitch....the majority who are only used for racing is it then down to the sire....who has nowt to do with the litter after it's born. The way I see it is if both dogs are physically sound then you have a template for making a good dog regardless of breeding. Yes certain physical characteristics are inherited from parents just as they are with humans but in terms of working ability the dog has to be presented with the right opportunity at the right time. Experience is everything not breeding....put an experienced dog against an inexperienced dog of so called good breeding and there will be only one winner.....as with everything else in life there's the exception to the rule and no doubt a few will have them in here....but in the vast majority of folk with good dogs it'll be down to the work they've done with them.

 

When we talk about what a dog has genetically inheritted we cant just look at the parents.....so many traits skip generations and resurface when you least expect them that you simply cant base genetic inheritance on parents alone.......ive seen dogs good that have inheritted literally nothing from their parents but are still great representatives of their line.......when i say dubious breeding i mean bred from dogs that genetically shouldnt have produced a dog of such quality but do....this is a rare thing you might do 5 breedings exactly the same produce 30 pups and only 1 is a top class dog.....this 1 dog is the genetic freak but people mistakingly use this type of dog to breed from because he is a great dog......to judge a dog as a genetic freak you need to know his whole background you cant just judge it from his parents.

To say as long as you have 2 healthy parents you have the template for making a good dog regardless of breeding is just plain wrong you cannot dismiss genetics as easy as that,if that was the case you would be able to get 2 strong healthy corgis and make a good hunting dog you cant because inherrited genetics wont allow that.....thats an extreme example i know but you probably get my meaning.

Of course a more experienced dog will be a better individual dog than an inexperienced well bred dog.....but a well bred dog with experience should be what everyone strives for or else why would people bother testing,breeding and raising dogs the best they can......if nurture/experience was all a dog needs then every dog has the capability to be good ........they dont !

 

 

 

I never claimed it was all nurture/experience and how many breeders know the whole background of their dogs? not just a few generations ....I'm not dismissing genetics.....If I use a 3/4 x as my template.....I know I'm going to have a certain type....it's going to be reasonably fast reasonably smart, reasonably streamlined unless I use a corgi.... (genetics)....what I dont know is how the dog is going to turn out....they could be the best parents in the world but if I dont give the dog the opportunity to reach it's potential through experience, training and access to quarry then it will remain an ordinary dog no matter what it's linage is.....Look I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone about how they breed their dogs....if they want to breed from worker to worker thats great, and is probably the way to go. This all started from a Hancock thread were they were dismissed as inferior because of where they came from and the dogs used. I've owned and worked a few Hancocks in my time and I know for a fact this is nonsense...My whole arguement was that you dont have to breed from working parents to produce a good working dog..folk bang on about comparisons to other x's like saluki greys bull x's deerhound x's etc etc etc....its all relative to what and where you hunt....take a coursing dog and use it on certain terrain you'd be carrying it of the field....or a dog of over 27 - 28 tts and run it in small confined areas and see how well it does..Likewise a rabbit dog and put it on hares. People have their own thoughts on this subject as do I. At the end of the day I'm the only one who knows what my dog is (was) capable off.....the only person my dogs have to impress is me....and for whatever reason a dog doesn't take to certain things the first thing I think of is where have I gone wrong not at it's parents.

[halloween man 12]

I was more or less in agreement with you until the last paragraph...writing dogs of as genetic freaks because of dubious breeding is wrong.

 

I'll use Keano's old dog Gripper as an example. I bred this dog of my old whippet collie grey bitch to a full track grey. Now apart from running this greyhound had never done any other type of work. At the time I was more or less into rabbiting and a few hares with the occasional fox.....I decided to breed the bitch in her 3rd season as she had lost a knee-cap and I wanted a bigger and faster dog. Gripper's record speaks for it's self and the other remarkable about this dog was he had a fused knuckle on his front leg for most of his life having broke it at just over a year old. If we go on the worker to worker theory then all his hunting traits must have been inherited from the dam. Now if you reverse it the other way and put a half x dog over a grey bitch....the majority who are only used for racing is it then down to the sire....who has nowt to do with the litter after it's born. The way I see it is if both dogs are physically sound then you have a template for making a good dog regardless of breeding. Yes certain physical characteristics are inherited from parents just as they are with humans but in terms of working ability the dog has to be presented with the right opportunity at the right time. Experience is everything not breeding....put an experienced dog against an inexperienced dog of so called good breeding and there will be only one winner.....as with everything else in life there's the exception to the rule and no doubt a few will have them in here....but in the vast majority of folk with good dogs it'll be down to the work they've done with them.

 

When we talk about what a dog has genetically inheritted we cant just look at the parents.....so many traits skip generations and resurface when you least expect them that you simply cant base genetic inheritance on parents alone.......ive seen dogs good that have inheritted literally nothing from their parents but are still great representatives of their line.......when i say dubious breeding i mean bred from dogs that genetically shouldnt have produced a dog of such quality but do....this is a rare thing you might do 5 breedings exactly the same produce 30 pups and only 1 is a top class dog.....this 1 dog is the genetic freak but people mistakingly use this type of dog to breed from because he is a great dog......to judge a dog as a genetic freak you need to know his whole background you cant just judge it from his parents.

To say as long as you have 2 healthy parents you have the template for making a good dog regardless of breeding is just plain wrong you cannot dismiss genetics as easy as that,if that was the case you would be able to get 2 strong healthy corgis and make a good hunting dog you cant because inherrited genetics wont allow that.....thats an extreme example i know but you probably get my meaning.

Of course a more experienced dog will be a better individual dog than an inexperienced well bred dog.....but a well bred dog with experience should be what everyone strives for or else why would people bother testing,breeding and raising dogs the best they can......if nurture/experience was all a dog needs then every dog has the capability to be good ........they dont !

 

 

 

I never claimed it was all nurture/experience and how many breeders know the whole background of their dogs? not just a few generations ....I'm not dismissing genetics.....If I use a 3/4 x as my template.....I know I'm going to have a certain type....it's going to be reasonably fast reasonably smart, reasonably streamlined unless I use a corgi.... (genetics)....what I dont know is how the dog is going to turn out....they could be the best parents in the world but if I dont give the dog the opportunity to reach it's potential through experience, training and access to quarry then it will remain an ordinary dog no matter what it's linage is.....Look I'm not looking to pick a fight with anyone about how they breed their dogs....if they want to breed from worker to worker thats great, and is probably the way to go. This all started from a Hancock thread were they were dismissed as inferior because of where they came from and the dogs used. I've owned and worked a few Hancocks in my time and I know for a fact this is nonsense...My whole arguement was that you dont have to breed from working parents to produce a good working dog..folk bang on about comparisons to other x's like saluki greys bull x's deerhound x's etc etc etc....its all relative to what and where you hunt....take a coursing dog and use it on certain terrain you'd be carrying it of the field....or a dog of over 27 - 28 tts and run it in small confined areas and see how well it does..Likewise a rabbit dog and put it on hares. People have their own thoughts on this subject as do I. At the end of the day I'm the only one who knows what my dog is (was) capable off.....the only person my dogs have to impress is me....and for whatever reason a dog doesn't take to certain things the first thing I think of is where have I gone wrong not at it's parents.

Well said my friend totally agree

[poacher3161 1,766]

Since keeping lurchers for the last 35 years and from exspeireance i would always go for the well bred pup not necesarily out of two world beaters as long as the parents were sound in limb and lung and not yappers wich can come out in their offspring.atvb

[ribb 15]

man makes everything

[skycat 6,173]

man makes everything

 

And I'd agree with you largely there. I was given an extremely well bred coursing dog, mainly Saluki with the usual suspects thrown in and from many many generations of very good fen dogs. Now because of where I live and my situation and the ban, it is unlikely this lad will ever get to run his intended quarry as often as he would have been physically capable of...............BUT because he has been brought up bushing round cover with terriers he has adapted in only the way that a well bred dog with a keen hunting brain can, and whilst he works round brambles with the other dogs he'd sooner be off finding his own rabbits.

 

It is on his own round cover, nettles, thick grass etc that he catches his rabbits, though God knows how: he's nearly 28", not the fastest dog if you compared him to the dashing sprint of a Whippet blooded lurcher, but somehow, alone, he manages to catch as many rabbits as the rest of the pack (teriers and lurchers) and the first I usually know of it is when I hear a low growl behind me: and there's Reem, standing there with a rabbit in his mouth telling the other dogs to leave it alone. He will only leave my side to go hunting again once he's seen me put the rabbit in my game bag.

 

He sneaks, freezes, creeps and stalks as good, if not better, than any good Collie cross, and he can obviously manage to get down to grab the rabbits too. I've seen him work the scent of a creeping pheasant for over 100 yards through nettle beds before finally putting it up, though he's yet to catch one.

 

Now if he'd been brought up just being slipped on hares on the fens: would he have developed all these other talents? I wonder. And he's one dog I really don't worry about when he's running through woodland: he's one of the most careful and clever dogs I've known, and whilst I sometimes shut my eyes in fear when I see the faster dogs approaching wire etc, I never worry about him: he wired himself badly as a sapling and since then has been ultra careful.

 

Does anyone else have any experience of the 'wrong' sort of dog doing different jobs well? Be nice to hear from you.

[Mars 42]

One man's meat is another man's poison...or to put it into context: one man's litter wastage is another man's life-long ferreting/mooching partner.

 

Lol, this bitch below is that " one mans litter wastage" I thank god that man decided to give her away free to good home as she was`nt going to make big enough for his likeing.....

I`ve seen this bitch run rings round bigger dogs, and out "Perform" bigger dogs, catch rabbits like a whippet plus do all other things you`d expect of a bitch of this breeding.

Now in his eyes she was`nt good enough but it`s down to his breeding, that i`ve had my life long mooching partner, and she has passed on those traits to her offspring, A lot of which i`ve seen work and some of them have been tested even more than she has, and that full on attitude with no quarter given has been passed on to all her pups...

And so has her placid nature around all other animals that are not considered to be Quarry

 

23" & 28kg of litter wastage...

 

Mars...