Raw meat or Cooked

[Rainmaker 7]

Lordy here we go again lol. Sorry a little late replying been a little busy but wanted to make time in support of all those who are forced to prefix posts about nutrition with a warning to the raw brigade to lay off.

 

Likewise apologies, I've had a busy week and tbh totally forgot about this lol I'll keep it superficial, precisely because it's late and I'm not in much of a frame of mind to go in-depth. However, I thought your effort should at least merit the courtesy of an answer/acknowledgement

 

Not natural lordy where's that yurt? Natural is a much overestimated state and used term. Anyone who thinks nature is best should try it and will soon be back in their un-natural house with its un-natural utilities etc.

 

At the end of the day, research is starting to bear out what nature has told us all along; that feeding a diet not suited to an organism or animal does nothing but facilitate ill health. While it's true that dogs aren't obligate carnivores (unlike, say, cats and ferrets) they are carnivores nonetheless. Anything else is semantics. In contrast to any animal capable of meaningful utilisation of herbivorous material, dogs' caecums are highly UN-developed and they lack the enzymes necessary to digest grain or herbivorous material (hence it requires blending/mushing/cooking and rendering to be anything approaching useable - dogs in the wild can't do these things to their food and thus don't eat it!). (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.) The excess strain on the pancreas of having to artificially produce enough enzyme of the wrong type to utilise the only available foodstuff (grain based crap) is exactly what causes pancreatitis and diabetes in junk fed dogs.

 

Dogs deprived of natural foodstuffs soon develop illness and a large proportion suffer early death because of this. The leading cause of such illness and early death in our captive carnivores (obligate or not) is periodontal disease ('PD') and its associated maladies.

 

PD leads to things like heart, liver and kidney damage, pancreatitis, arthritis, auto-immune disease, septicaemia and subsequent "knock on" effects like diabetes, cancer and death. This is a matter of record and even pet food manufacturers freely acknowlegde this. Of dogs fed on commercially manufactured junk food, >75% will have periodontal disease at a level necessitating surgical intervention by the time they're three years old! Surely you can't help but agree that's a shocking figure, considering how serious a disease PD is, not to mention the fact it's wholly preventable?

 

Feeding a diet the animal is designed to eat (carcasses, whole raw meaty bones etc) effectively cleans and flosses teeth at every meal, and animals fed such a diet maintain pearly whites well into old age. They don't suffer PD, dog breath, or any of the nasty (often eventually fatal) maladies of their junk fed brethren. Nowadays PD is such an accepted ailment that 'dog breath' is accepted as normal rather than a sign of disease, amongst the general population and even some vets!

 

The paper you kindly forwarded me did nothing but confirm my present beliefs. An unsuitable diet leads to disease. Yes it referred to too high a fat content in the diet (how high is too high?) but I'm willing to bet my last quid that the animals involved were fed commercial junk to begin with. The 'fat' in such food is actually rendered and cooked fat, which is completely different chemically and physically to the real, fresh fat which forms part (only part) of a carcass. Chalk and cheese.

 

Dogs' physiology is no different now than it was all those years ago pre-domestication. Spratt's idea to make a quick buck selling re-packaged Ship's Biscuits as 'dog food' a relative blink ago in canine evolution certainly hasn't allowed time to alter their physiology, dental or digestive system. A dog and a grey wolf are identical internally, and in fact as was proven fairly recently (Wayne, R. "Molecular Evolution of the Family Dog". Trends in Genetics. June 1993. 9:6 pp218-224) that they are in fact a confirmed direct descendent / sub-species of the grey wolf, and are now reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris (previously Canis familiaris). Our dogs and grey wolves differ by only 0.2% of mDNA (the small stuff, not DNA, which is the 'bigger' stuff).

 

This is an absolutely tiny discrepancy (the Coyote, for example, differs from the Grey Wolf by a much (20x) larger 4% of mDNA) accounts for nothing more than change in size, shape, coat colour and type etc as found among the varying shapes and sizes of dog breed. Dogs ARE wolves. Their intended diet is prey animals. Wolves and wild dogs of that ilk eat no stomach contents or herbivorous material unless forced to do so through starvation (Mech, D. 2003. "Wolves: Behaviour, Ecology & Conservation". p123).

 

Surely basic common sense tells us to follow suit? I see no plausible argument to the contrary. Feeding our animals a diet that WON'T make them ill (or rather, refusing to feed a commercially motivated junk food diet that's proven WILL make them ill) is not wishy-washy "want to live in a yurt and eat lentils" thinking, and tbh having to resort to silly ad homien digs only shows that your argument is otherwise tenuous at best.

 

It's common sense and basic animal husbandry. I don't feed my snakes corn on the cob or sausages. They'd probably survive on sausages, but not for very long and they'd be ill the whole time. Pretty much like most dogs fed junk food today. Indeed the diabetes and pancreatitis your PM'd paper refers to [genuine thanks for that btw, I may disagree with your linking it to raw feeding but it's always nice to get reading material!] are TREATABLE by switching to a raw food diet. Check out Pottenger's studies and all the other evidence out there. Diabetes and pancreatitis and all the other nasty stuff is actually facilitated in a huge way by feeding inappropriate junk. Hardly a surprise therefore that switching to an appropriate diet helps reverse or at least stem the damage.

 

I was amused at the "salesman" dig aimed at Dr Lonsdale. Tom offers his books FREE to anyone who cares to read them, and apart from that WHAT is he selling?? He certainly isn't selling raw meaty bones and carcasses! He just tells you to source them yourself and watch the health benefits flow. He's a really crap salesman, yes? Not like those lovely people at the pet food company who only have your animals' health and your finances at heart when they publish all this 'research' and advise you which of their grain based junk foods are 'best' to buy for your pet... Oh, wait... LOL

 

Anyway this could drag on forever. I'm pretty sure I read you feed raw earlier on, I must have been mistaken as you seem vehemently opposed to this yurt-yearning school of thought. Did you actually read Raw Meaty Bones: Promote Health or was the reference to Atkins' diet a gloss over? I also highly recommend Raw Fed Myths for some interesting (referenced) reading.

 

Back to poo they always fall back on poo. Seems to be a worrying interest in stool volume, I feed a varied diet and don't seem to have a problem with poo, perhaps I need to develop one lol.

 

Thank you I enjoyed this little chat please feel free to comment, Sandy.

 

Because a volume of stool approaching that of original food intake, especially when said stool is sticky, brownish, loose and smelly isn't normal for a carnivore. It's just further evidence of their inability to process the junk sold as "complete and balanced" (what a fraud!). You may think I'm a hippy wannabe, but you have to remember there are many more respectable, eminent men than I professing it - all of whom have veterinary degrees and a PhD in common sense. They're not hippies, they're just not money grabbing junk food and disease peddlers. I strongly suggest you speak to Dr Tom Lonsdale direct (his email is on his site) and discuss this with him. I'd be grateful should you post the communiques as they'd make interesting reading. I can only give limited scope of counter argument and offer first hand anecdotal information about HOW to feed.

 

Dr Lonsdale will be delighted, I'm sure, to tell you at great length exactly WHY you should. Clever bloke, that, and never a penny sent to him.

Likewise nice to chat, even if we shall have to agree to disagree. ATB

[sandymere 8,263]

Thanks for your reply but you add nothing that I have not answered above.

Cheers s

[Mac 30]

Some very good reading there Sandy & Rainmaker , keep it up ! Great to see some sensible adult debate without all the "im gonna come kick your ass" debacle lol

[sandymere 8,263]

Some very good reading there Sandy & Rainmaker , keep it up ! Great to see some sensible adult debate without all the "im gonna come kick your ass" debacle lol

Don't encourage us!

I'm to old and skinny to kick ass and definatly to old to be kicked lol.

[Mac 30]

Some very good reading there Sandy & Rainmaker , keep it up ! Great to see some sensible adult debate without all the "im gonna come kick your ass" debacle lol

Don't encourage us!

I'm to old and skinny to kick ass and definatly to old to be kicked lol.

 

[Rainmaker 7]

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