true enough paddybarr, fair comment i was happy with the ones i bought off mike, 13 years ago now, sired direct by sooty sam, they ran well with the east of england and east anglian whippet coursing clubs, they never let me down, and they also ran well around home daytime hares rabbits, and nailed plenty on the lamp, and worked well with ferrets, as can be read in my posts going back 4 years since i first came on here, but i think a lot of that was down to the effort i put in, and since then 13 years ago i have seen better, which are actually campaigned in the field year in year out for all t