cheers collie john. i to agree mate with what you said, i also think it makes a difrence in whitch way round you breed them dam collie sire grey is how my pals bitch is bred, shes touching 23 and a very quick bitch off the mark. this is the type that id go for, no doubt when the time is right, il put my hand to a halfx pup one day in the near future. atb taff