thnx lol just u dont need 2 start arguments just because i put this up do u honestly think i would go book it in the vets for 2moro if i got posetive feed back from this no i wouldnt this topic was 2 c if anyone else has done any thing like it it would b used as a verry last resort but not soon fair enough u might think im a prick for putting this up but i wouldnt get its voice box removed unless i had tried every thing possible the dog has been kennald with my other dog and its still the same if u wouldnt use water what would u do?